The Execution Gap: Buying Your First HMO with Dr. Michael Taylor

Most aspiring property investors don't struggle because they lack knowledge.

They struggle because they never make the leap from learning to actually doing. They've read the books, listened to the podcasts, invested in education, but still haven't completed their first HMO project.

In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Michael Taylor, better known as ThePropertyGP. After building a £2 million HMO portfolio in under two years while working as a full-time GP, Michael has helped countless first-time investors bridge what he calls the "execution gap."

Together, we explore why so many investors get stuck, the common obstacles holding them back, and how the right support can help you complete your first profitable HMO with confidence.

🎯 What You'll Learn

• Why education alone isn't enough to become a successful HMO investor
• The biggest reasons aspiring investors get stuck before completing their first deal
• How to overcome fear, overwhelm, and the "what if?" mindset
• The importance of building the right power team around your project
• Real-life examples of first-time investors who have successfully completed profitable HMOs

If you've been thinking about investing in HMOs but haven't taken that first step yet, this episode will help you understand what's holding you back and, more importantly, how to move forward with confidence.

👉 Learn more about Michael's Blueprint programme and book a strategy call here.

💻 Resources & Mentions

• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• Facebook Community: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside The HMO Community here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy, and you're listening to the HMO podcast. Over ten years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan, soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses, I've raised millions of pounds of investment and have managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemize your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.59)

Today, we're talking about a problem that affects a huge number of aspiring property investors. In fact, I would say that this is the biggest problem, and it affects most aspiring property investors. It is that big. Now, these are not necessarily people who lack the knowledge. They've read the books, they've listened to the podcasts, they've attended networking events. In many cases, they've invested significant amounts of money in property education. They understand the strategy. They know what HMOs are, they know how to assess deals, but they still haven't completed their first project. They remain trapped between knowing what to do and actually doing it. 

Well, today we're exploring why this happens, but more importantly, how to close that gap. If anything I've just said resonates with you, if you feel stuck, then today's episode is definitely the one to stick around for. Let's get into it.

Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment. But before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO Roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me.

Teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future. We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you, that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMORoadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:43.246)

Okay, welcome back to the podcast. Today, my guest is Dr. Michael Taylor, also known as the Property GP. Now, Michael spent more than 20 years working in the NHS, including 15 years as a GP, and eight years of those as a senior partner in a very busy practice. Now, despite having no background in property per se, Michael and his wife Laura built a very successful portfolio of HMOs worth more than two million in under two years. And Michael continues to work as a GP and raise a young family whilst they did that. 

Now, Michael originally joined us back on episode 328 on the podcast, where we explored Michael's journey from GP to full-time investor. But today we're going to do something a little bit different. Instead of exploring exactly how Michael got to where he is, we're actually now going to talk about how Michael has been helping very, very successfully a lot of investors, first-time investors, make that leap from education into execution. 

Because if anyone understands how to close this gap, it really is, Michael. Now, we're going to reveal exactly what Michael is also doing at the HMO roadmap. We've got a very exciting thing to share with you and reveal today. And it's going to be a complete game changer for anybody listening, especially those at the early stages of their investment journey. So, Michael, welcome back to the podcast.

Michael Taylor (04:01.922)

Yeah, thanks for having me back, Andy. It's great to be here.

Andy Graham (04:04.526)

I notice you are currently overseas. You're in a very nice part of the world. Just tell us where you are.

Michael Taylor (04:10.341)

I am so I'm right now I'm in the south of France, in Antibes, having a child free week with my wife. My kids come out and join us later. So yeah, all good on this side. Thank you.

Andy Graham (04:19.857)

And actually I know that you spent all of your summers abroad, don't you? You go away, you get away for the whole of the summer, yeah. And no small part I know that your portfolio helps you do exactly that as well.

Michael Taylor (04:31.168)

It absolutely does. And my wife Laura is a teacher at the moment. So she has her summers of course. And so yeah, property enables us to do that and we love it. Last summer we were hopping around Greek islands, the summer before in Spain. This summer week in France and then on to Italy.

Andy Graham (04:45.794)

Oh lovely. Well, Michael, I don't want to go over old ground today, but perhaps just for listeners who've maybe found the show recently or who haven't managed to catch up on episode three to eight yet. Can you just very quickly just introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about you, about your property business, and I suppose just what the high level sort of summary is that it kind of got you from, I suppose, GP to property investor. 

Michael Taylor (05:09.39)

Yeah, of course. So and I think you've summed it up at the beginning pretty well. I mean, I've been within the NHS for a good 20 years as a doctor, I was a partner for 15 years, senior partner for eight. I spent 10 years as a trainer, so training GPs. So essentially taking junior doctors and working with them as sort of one-to-one mentoring role to help them qualify as GPs. I was also the primary care network clinical director for a time. So that was looking after not just my own practice, but a bunch of practices in my local area. 

And I'm also an appraiser. So I work on behalf of the GMC. Every year, doctors, we just need to sit down with another doctor once a year, talk through the year that we've had and any goals. Have we achieved those? Have we worked? How do we work against them? And setting goals for the year ahead. So I've probably done most things as a GP that I can to be honest. And I realized some while ago that I was very much in that sort of eat, sleep, work, repeat cycle and work was if I'm honest, it's fairly busy. The NHS is not known for having a quiet life. And I don't mind the busyness, but actually it was just so relentless that I needed to be doing something else. I needed, I was struggling to see my family, struggling to give them the time that they needed. And it was time for us to do something different. 

So made a decision. I went and spent some money on my own education when it comes to property, recognizing that this was a brand new area, that I didn't know anything really about property, but it was I was happy to spend money on that. I knew that I needed to learn things. We had a pretty successful first couple of years. We ended up a couple of awards. We were finalists as well in the Property Investors Award for HMO Investor of the Year. And we built up a portfolio, a whole bunch of HMOs in Portsmouth. And they are now replacing my NHS salary and enabling us to do things with life that we want to do, such as spending our summers abroad. It went pretty well. And I think the more that we were doing, the more people were asking us.

Well, can you help us with our deals. You know, I see that you're doing a pretty good job and your properties look great and they're renting well. So can you please help us with ours? And that's really where the property GP started because we were recognizing that people were coming asking us for help and we were being able to support them. We were being able to find them deals. We were able to help them through the process. And really that's I guess where the property GP was then was then started.

Andy Graham (07:28.91)

Fantastic. Well, thank you for kind of sharing all that that backstory, Michael. And clearly you've been super successful in your own professional career as well. And I think one of the things that's very interesting is that your training was in the health service in the NHS. You've done a huge amount of training in there. So it's very natural to you, wasn't it, to when you were looking at property, to actually find someone to almost fill that kind of education, mentorship role to help coach and accelerate you. And I suppose develop your confidence to actually apply yourself to this idea effectively. 

And I think, in all honesty, some of us don't come from a professional background or a career or an environment that really nurtured that sort of approach to many things. For you, it was clearly tacking nature and something that played, I think I remember you saying, a really critical role in your ability to actually build the portfolio that you have and do it as successfully as you have as well. And I've really got to know you over the last couple of years. I should probably add to your so list of accolades that Michael can also very effectively take out ski poles at high speeds, which I observed is standing in the middle of the piste in Switzerland earlier in this year. 

Appreciate that. But you explained something to me or you shared an idea with me that I suppose wasn't in itself unique, but the way that you explained it to me and the sort of the how you highlighted it to me, I think really was quite poignant. And having obviously worked with a lot of people myself, having a lot of friends.

And people in my network that are investing in HMOs at different levels, and a lot of people that approach me and us who are at the beginning of their journey, it is very, very difficult to get off the ground, despite how much information you can gorge on and take on board and all whatever training and coaching and however much you might even pay for it, it can still be very hard to turn that into something material. And you described this to me as the execution gap. 

So I want to start today's episode by talking to you about what the execution gap is. I know that this was something that you saw in the medical world as well, but help us understand specifically what that execution gap looks like in the property sector, Michael.

Michael Taylor (09:41.346)

Yeah, of course. I think it's within the NHS, of course. I spent six years at med school. I then went on to spend a further five years training to be a GP. And education, of course, is so important, right? Like we can't do any of this without knowing what it is that we're meant to be doing. I know that your listeners know that. They are part of the HMO roadmap community. Maybe they're listening to the podcast because they want more education. And absolutely education is so so so important. But then there is this gap between education and execution.

This is gap between knowing the stuff and doing the stuff. And again, within the NHS, we would have all the education, but then we would spend 18 months plus one-to-one alongside a more senior doctor who's done it before, who knows what they're doing, and can show us the ropes because that's when the education then sort of slots into place. When you're doing it, when you've got that support, you know, you're just expected to crack on without that support and if you like mentoring alongside you. 

So I think property is honestly I think it's very, very similar. I think that education is so, so, so important. But then there's this little gap where we have the education, but for some reason something just stops us from getting stuff done. And again, maybe people are sat at home now just listening to this thinking, yeah, that's me. I've had the education. I know how to invest in HMOs. I know what HMOs can do for me. I get the principles, but I just haven't quite, for whatever reason, got myself into it. I haven't got myself started. I haven't taken that first step. And that I think is the execution gap. And I think there's lots of reasons for that, of course. Everyone's a bit different.

Andy Graham (11:19.8)

I want to talk to you about those reasons. And I think just to add to what you said there, one of the things that I found as well, that I've observed, is that sometimes that understanding of why they haven't pulled the trigger, why they haven't actually made that leap of faith and fledged is missing. They don't actually know what it is that just isn't clicking. And it can often lead to overwhelm, can't it? It can be quite confusing. And I've written a list of things down here, all really important things.

And I think it's often the combination of putting all of this stuff together that newer investors really, really struggle with. So just take us back to when you were approaching this, Michael, just for a bit of context. How did you embark on that process of figuring this out? Obviously, you decided that you wanted to do something alongside your professional career and build a portfolio, an asset based business, something that gave you an alternative income source. What was it that you did? And what was it that you recognized you didn't have that you felt like you need? What was the bit that needed fixing for you to actually execute?

Michael Taylor (12:23.33)

Yeah. So first off, of course, education. But then beyond that, it was for me personally, it was a lack of confidence. A hundred percent. It was just not really having the confidence to take that step, the confidence to essentially put money down to buy a property. Had so many questions going in my head, what if what if I'm not buying in the right location? What if I'm not doing this property? What if there's unknown unknowns that I don't recognise? What's my next step? I didn't really know what my sort of clearly defined next step was. Again, I'd had the education, but okay, if I agreed to buy a property, what is next? I mean, who do I need to speak to? Broker, architect, planning consultant, etc. You know, what do I do next? How do I do it? I was busy at work. I was busy bringing up a family. That time pressure, sometimes days would just fly by and suddenly another day had gone by. It reached five PM and I hadn't made the call I needed to. I hadn't spoken someone again, bit of overwhelm, often not really knowing who I needed to speak to. 

I think we hear about networking being really important and it is so, so, so important. But there are times where, and again, certainly for me, I think where there were so many voices in my life, so many property voices in my life, that actually I had so many different opinions. I had one person telling me to buy here, one person telling me to buy there. That was overwhelming. Who do I listen to? Who do I trust? I think as well, for me getting started.

Probably one of the biggest challenges I had was just always thinking that there's a better deal out there. It was always thinking, okay, this deal is gonna return me 15, 20%, whatever. But maybe there's one out there that will return me 16% or 21%. Well, this deal just seems a little risky. How can I just de-risk that a little bit more? And I think trying to find the perfect deal, trying to find the perfect de-risked, zero risk deal with all that other stuff just swimming around in my head. It absolutely just led to overwhelm and overwhelm always really just leads to procrastination and a lack of action.

Andy Graham (14:23.778)

Well, I can certainly relate to that. And you found this. When things are going well, results do compound, don't they? Your network and the benefits there. They do. The income, yeah, the efficiencies in your business. It can all compound if you're doing things the right way. But what I've observed is that if you're not doing things the right way or not even doing things, things still compound. But unfortunately, they compound in the wrong direction. And that is often, I think, driven by confidence. Like you said, that lack of confidence. But also then it becomes frustration, sometimes that becomes haze, sometimes that becomes resentment, sometimes it becomes boredom, in honesty, just looking at what appears to be the same page or same screen. They might be slightly different numbers, but everything starts to blend. And very quickly, I think people do lose their way. They lose sight of what it is that they set their eyes on, their original objective, why they were doing this in the first place. And I think it's very difficult to see the wood for the trees when you're in that position. 

And you mentioned there, I think an example, the way I would think about this, is just sometimes having somebody to point you in the right direction and remove all of the noise is one of the most powerful things. And it's not necessarily the case that the different voices that were sharing opinions with you were all wrong. They may have all been right, but in their own different ways. And like you said, you could have picked any number of these different things and gone a direction, but was it quite the right thing for you. I think that that's a bit more difficult and a bit more nuanced. And of course, everyone's giving you advice often with like your best interests in mind. 

But I think experienced investors, yeah, and I certainly find myself saying this a few times a week to different people. Yeah, you probably can make money on that deal. I'm not saying it's a bad deal, but the real question is just is, it the right deal for you based on everything else that we've talked about, the objective that you've set and everything else going on around you in life and in business right now. And sometimes that's very difficult because new investors, of course, don't have that experience. They don't have that ability to perhaps sort of step away from a deal and almost see it unemotionally and see it purely as a business transaction. 

So I've written a list of things down here, certainly things that we know are important to deal making, but I wanted to walk through them and actually try and help our listeners understand why they might be having.

Andy Graham (16:46.892)

some of these feelings, why they might be procrastinating, why they might have that lack of confidence. And I wanted to start with the big and the obvious one. And that's numbers. So appraising deals is a fairly rudimentary part of the buying real estate process, isn't it? But from your perspective, Michael, and especially taking yourself back to those earlier stages when you were just getting started, what elements of that appraisal method, what was it about the numbers that would give you concern and and what should our listeners be aware of, be concerned of and why might they have a lack of confidence, I suppose, in that area particularly?

Michael Taylor (17:24.46)

Yeah. So without a doubt, lack of experience just led to lack of confidence. And that was not knowing whether I could trust my numbers was I think one of the biggest hurdles for us getting started. We'd had the education, we knew roughly we knew what our numbers should be, we knew what to include in our costs. But again, it's those unknown unknowns. And from experience, of course, you know, different projects often require different costs, some of which are unique to one project or another that are not always evident right at the beginning. So we've had lenders ask for surveys, for example, that we had no idea that they would ask for drain surveys or otherwise that wasn't part of our original numbers. 

We've had neighbours not happy with party ward agreements. We've had downvaluations. We've had refurb costs that have been higher than we were hoping. In all of our projects, there have been moments when numbers have perhaps just not been quite what we fully expected them to be right at the beginning. And again, that's I think just that was at the beginning, right at the beginning, that stopped me doing deals because I was worried about these unknown unknowns as as we get into projects and the more we've done, of course, the more we have built some of these numbers in, the more we've been able to work with our margins to make these deals still work. But it but there's just unknowns that especially when we get started, difficult to predict.

Andy Graham (18:45.422)

I suppose as well, once you've done a project, or if you work with somebody who has done a project, you have the benefit of that hindsight, you have that experience, you have that valuation in hand, you have all of the opinions of everybody that's been involved in that process. And it might not actually change the result. It might actually have ended up slightly more soft in terms of the performance than anticipated. But interestingly, that gives you more confidence and makes it easier next time because you could use that to plan with can't you it's more tangible understandably to investors that they don't have that and so it's that worry that big question mark about well what if and again that's that what if isn't it that just these people go from one deal to the next you pulled out a few of the key ones there valuation risk it's massive isn't it and you and I still experience valuation risk it it never goes away but there's a way of mitigating it to an extent and there's certainly a way of planning for that spectrum of outcomes. 

But I think the key thing is understanding that that is a key piece of the deal and applying it to the wider appraisal in the right way. Refurb costs as well. I think this is such a good example, Michael. Anybody who has done a refurbishment will know just how many things can go wrong. Small things, big things, timelines, costs, just everything. It's not unfair, is it, that somebody who hasn't done this before would be apprehensive about whether or not their numbers are right and how big the spectrum of things going wrong could be. I mean, how did you feel specifically when you were just getting started about the whole kind of refurb process itself and what the bearing on numbers from that respect might have been?

Michael Taylor (20:27.82)

Yeah. Well again, it's that lack of confidence. It's not knowing from the beginning. It's not knowing then what I do now. And that absolutely held us back. It was the what ifs, it was the fear of getting it wrong. It was the what ifs. I can't afford this, etc. Like it was very, very, very real concerns. They're real concerns. They're there to help protect us, aren't they? But they without someone alongside us, without that experienced hand to help us with that, absolutely is one of the reasons that I think people get stuck. 

Andy Graham (20:55.608)

Let’s talk about location then. So location in its own right, even if you just put the numbers aside for a second, just purely location can have such a key bearing on the success of a project or business. So talk to me about the sorts of things that you were thinking about when you were putting your foundations, Michael, where you were thinking about what to invest in and where to invest.

Michael Taylor (21:19.342)

So for me, I think probably in property investing, and we can probably debate this all day, but for me, I think the number one rule is to buy in an area of high rental demand. I think that absolutely is key. So location is everything. What do we want to do with our property? Who do we want to rent it to? Which tenant type? Where do they want to live? What's our HMO density, for example? What's the supply? There are so many questions around the right location, which we need to get right.

Which is so important. And that really sets up everything. It sets up our demand. It sets up our rents. Getting, buying in the right place is so important. And again, sometimes I think when we've had lots of noises, we've had lots of other opinions. It's should buy here, buy there, what about this place? What about that place? And again, not everyone is wrong. But what's our plan? You know, who are we wanting to rent to? What's our market? And yeah, I know of course you're big in the student market and you need to buy properties that in locations where students want to live and it is absolutely the basis of a good deal working out is buying in the correct location.

Andy Graham (22:25.984)

One of the things that I've often seen, and I'm sure you have as well, is that this decision can cause so much anxiety. It can cause so much procrastination and hesitation because naturally investors who come into the market, they're looking for the highest possible returns. And yes, want that high demand, but perhaps just don't understand the priority of putting that demand perhaps above what the performance, the actual numbers might look like on paper.

At least. So to share with our listeners an extrapolated example, if you go to the furthest sort of corner of the country, you might on paper be able to convince yourself that you've got the best yield in the world. The numbers look the best. You'll be able to get the best cash return. You'll be able to get as much capital back out of the deal as possible. There'll be more projects that you can actually buy. So more availability of stock. All of that stuff looks easier because we're chasing yield. 

But if we then look at the actual demand, that piece could be in total conflict with the numbers piece. And getting that balance and striking that balance is so, so, so hard. And I think that that's the real nuance of an experienced investor. I think that that when I put my investment cap on, I'm looking at the relationship between these elements and all of the other elements that are involved in deal making, but not simply how good do the numbers look. 

That spreadsheet is only really telling us what we think it will look like today. It's not really telling us what that's likely to look like in three years or five years and ten years. And of course there's so much stuff off the spreadsheet that contributes to that. Population, like you said, competition, infrastructure plans and programs, maybe sort of changes in licensing and legislation, things like that that might have a positive or even a negative effect on what we're doing. So I think anybody who is finding that they are themselves going round in circles on this location piece.

There's a very good chance that the reason is somewhere in this discussion that you and I are having, Michael. And it's not always the case that it's right or wrong. It's just understanding how to apply what we want as an investor to a particular location, to a certain set of numbers. I've got a few more things out. So I want to talk about licensing and legislation. This is a really scary one for a lot of people, isn't it? I mean, just off the bat, we've got.

Andy Graham (24:50.978)

HMO licensing, we've got planning and all of these things determine whether or not we can do it and the nuances of what we can actually develop within the floor plan. I mean, how did you feel about this sort of stuff, Michael, when you were getting started? Was this sort of stuff quite concerning for you? Were you worried about getting this wrong and breaking the law or may end up with maybe a project that was just a dud? Jail. Jail, yeah. We don't want to end up in jail.

Michael Taylor (25:15.822)

Yeah, planning and licensing. I mean that just again, for me personally, planning and licensing right at the beginning was tricky to get my head around. I think the key to planning and licensing, of course, is building that in right from the very beginning. And I think that is often, sometimes again, it's just something else that's just a little bit overwhelming. Number one, we've got all of those confidence questions around what my planning is refused? What if I can't get a license? There are issues around, of course, licensing in terms of what if I build out my HMO that planning approves. 

But then when it comes to licensing, the license department look at it and say, well, actually that's not, those rooms aren't big enough. The kitchen's not big enough, et cetera. And on top of that, it's then finding contractors who also especially understand licensing. Do I need emergency lighting in my properties? Do I need my fire risk assessment, my exit strategies, exit from pproperty, et cetera? You know, what are the exits for tenants, not exit strategy in terms of the deal. But exits for tenants, you know, how does that all fit in? And I've heard stories of investors using contractors who said that they understood that, but ultimately didn't, didn't put in the correct fire alarm system, smoke detectors, et cetera. 

Again, there's just such challenges with this that are very real. And again, I think for me looking back, it was understanding all of that. It was trying to get my head around that. And to be honest, it was just another barrier that just stopped me taking action early on, the fear of getting it the wrong.

Andy Graham (26:42.296)

I’ve got a couple of examples actually that I can share. Very, very real examples here. You mentioned understanding fire safety as part of licensing or planning. And actually, I think depending on the scope of works, it can be a really key part of building control, the actual managed construction process. I know a particular client of mine prior to working with me had done a bought a project and wasn't advised correctly on something called an AOV, an automatic opening vent which allows smoke to vent in in the event of a fire. And the problems that this has caused with the ability to refinance at the end of a project and get building control sign off is absolutely massive. And trying to retrospit an AOV into a project is not the easiest thing.

These things live basically at the highest point in the building, typically above stairwells. Like you can't just go in and just it's not like coring through a wall. It's really, really, really difficult stuff. That's a really simple single example that to a large extent has derailed a project. And not just that project, but subsequent projects, the ability to refinance and possibly repay investors and and everything else that goes along with doing this. And it could have so easily been avoided with the right sort of advice. But understandably.

As an investor ourselves, our job, we're not fire safety experts. We can't know and understand all of this stuff. But like you said, it's the bits that we don't know we don't know is that's possibly the most concerning, the scarier. And another example on licensing, it's not uncommon, especially in areas where there's an established article four direction that existing HMOs will come up on the market and be sold. And typically they'll be advertised as, let's say, for example, a five-bed HMO with a license. 

Now, it might have planning, it might be planning compliant. Great, box ticked. Let's just assume in this case it it is. But actually, a lot of people I've seen buy these properties only to later find out that that property was licensed as a five bed, but the licensing on a local level has since changed. And actually one of those rooms now no longer is applied because it doesn't meet amenity standards. So actually, what a lot of people have inadvertently done is buy very expensive four beds and they've got a dud room.

Andy Graham (28:59.318)

And that's very difficult to know and understand this. And this is actually the sort of thing that in my experience, a lot of architects, unless they're HMO investors themselves wouldn't know, agents wouldn't know or even care. SLS probably aware of it and that's why they're disposing it at its peak value. It's so, so difficult to foresee this kind of nuance that can be critical to a deal. The cost of a bedroom, five versus four, is massive. 70, 80, 90,000 pounds could be overspent on that property. And you might not have any ability to turn it back into a five because there is fundamentally a lack of gross internal area to do it.

Michael Taylor (29:36.888)

Yeah, I totally agree, Andy. And I think every day, I see it every day in right move in our area where there are properties being sold as fiber HMOs where you look at them and you think, actually, that bedroom's not big enough. And they're they've had a license for five years. License has expired. They're not going to get the next license because, as you rightly say, the room's not big enough. And they try and dispose of the property. And I see that every day. I also, interestingly, quite often keep an eye on planning applications that have gone in. And I saw one recently that was rejected because of the application.

Again, one of the rooms didn't meet the minimum size standard. And I and I look at that, that just amazes me that people I don't know whether they've bought the poverty, they probably have, but they've then gone in for planning and just I don't know if they've not read the guidance or they've just I don't know what that is, but that's a straightaway flat no from the planning department. As you rightly say, they're not going to get that room. They've spent money and time and everything else trying to do that. And it just amazes me that again, that these things can trip us up if we're not careful.

Andy Graham (30:32.206)

Yep. That's architectural fees, it's yeah, consultant reports, it's the planning fee, it's possibly the time on a bridge, yeah, holding costs. It's so easy for this stuff to rack off and overlook what could be a very, very, very easy fix or a very minor detail if it can actually be resolved, but a very expensive mistake to have made in the first place. One of the things I know you're massive on, Michael, is people. You're a team player. It's part of your fabric as a GP. But let's talk about that for a moment because this I think for anybody just getting started, this is such a big one. 

It feels for most people. I mean, at times doing this myself, I still feel quite lonely. I've got a very big network, but my network is national and even international. I'm not necessarily surrounded like immediately by people doing this. I can't just sort of turn around to my wife and have conversations about some pretty tricky stuff. It can feel really lonely. So that's just one example. 

But let's talk about the team, the power team, how important that is and how influential that piece can be, or the fact that that is missing in this whole procrastination, overwhelm, lack of confidence piece that is possibly starting preventing a lot of people from getting started. What's your opinion on the role that this team around you plays, Michael?

Michael Taylor (31:51.97)

Yeah. So as you rightly say, I mean, the power team is absolutely vital. And those are your professionals that are gonna fill in many of those gaps that we have. Again, from experience, we can have all the knowledge. We need that knowledge. We need to know what our room sizes need to be, et cetera, et cetera. But our power team, these are the guys that are hopefully doing it day in, day out. Hopefully they've been doing it for some time. Those are the professionals who we need to have on our team, we need to have working with us.

And we need to be listening to them and taking their advice. There's a long list, isn't there, Andy? I don't know if we but from broker, architect, planning consultant, interior designer, of course, our build team, maybe a fire risk assessor. You've got your compliance with licensing, etc. You've got a lettings team at the back end if you're going to use a lettings team. But there is just so many people. These guys are so important to have the right people around us working with us. And I think for us that has been vital. We've used the same team for all of our projects.

And we've now reached a point where we call up our planning consultant and give them the address of the next project and they're onto it. And twenty-four hours later they turn around with a yes or no. And same with our architect and our builder. It's a quick call and and our builder's like, Yep, great. And quote comes over and just off you go together as a team onto the next one. And these parts are all moving, of course. They're often quite interlinked and our broker needs to have the schedule of works from the builder to go to all these things sort of all have to work together, but when you've got this team working around you, when you trust them and you have experienced people on your side, it just makes all the difference.

Andy Graham (33:26.894)

I think that's a great example as well of that compounding but in a positive direction with those people around you. They're able to accelerate the process. They're able to give you confidence because of their shared and collective confidence. And also critically, it's a way of significantly reducing your risk because they are the professionals. You know, they are being paid to understand this planning consultant. Now they're being paid to interpret local policy and trying to ascertain the likelihood of getting a particular scheme, pass whatever those changes or proposal might be. 

And also just to add to your list, I mean, I think that that's the obvious stuff. Architects, planning consultants, mortgage brokers, there's less obvious stuff as well. Like there's things that we might need that crop up. I'll give you a really good example because I would say that far more than nine in ten, I'd probably go as far as maybe ninety-nine in a hundred people that I meet who are embarking on construction projects for the first time have no idea that there are people who can well they may not even know that a JCT is a type of contract that you could put in place between yourself and a contractor. 

But even if they do aren't really aware that there are people that you can pay to draft those sorts of agreements for you, advise on that sort of agreement, and even be paid to manage the contract through a construction program. And there are also project managers, people who you can employ to manage your builder. One of the big mistakes I often see is that new investors, they get a quote from a builder that looks good. It's probably not priced like for like because they haven't gone through the architectural and planning and tendering process in the way that we would recommend you do. 

And so they employ this contractor on what looks like a good price. Lo and behold, lots of extras creep in. The builder then is referred to as the project manager. The investor's trusting them to manage the project, which is a bit crazy because that's like paying somebody who is directly conflicted because ultimately the more they do in the job and the longer it might take, the more they might get paid from you. And so there's no fail-safes in place. So there's just so much more to it than the kind of the really obvious contacts that we like and want and know that we need. And just having these people can help reduce the risks so much. A client of mine recently, again, on more than one project that they'd started prior to working with me.

Andy Graham (35:49.282)

They had legacy agreements with builders. And unfortunately, some of those relationships have soured and there's absolutely no fallback because there's no contract in place. Absolutely nothing. There was a quote, but there's nothing to point at responsibility, liquidated costs for being delayed on projects. There's no sort of remediation periods set in. So a bit of a disaster, really, and ultimately are really, really expensive mistakes. So yeah, I think that the people that we want and should have around us to do this, to invest in projects is one of the most important elements. 

But understandably, for anyone listening today that is overwhelmed by the idea that they don't have that, that's okay. Just recognize that you should have it. And there are ways to accelerate the method of actually building this. I mean, before we move on, I really want to ask you about some of the examples of people that you've worked with, Michael. But before we do that, I just want to address for all of our listeners that have perhaps just listened to that conversation we've had about all of these different things. And I we're scratching the surface. 

A few of the considerations that we need to have. It's perfectly normal. In fact, it's a completely sane response to be overwhelmed by all of that and to be quite concerned and feel a bit scared and be anxious about all of that and be worried about getting that wrong. That is a completely sane and completely normal response. So anyone sitting there thinking, great, that's fine. Like good. What isn't sane and what isn't a good and normal response?

It's just going around in circles worrying about all of that. The sensible approach is to go and get advice, to find someone who can help streamline this process, who can do it in a targeted way. And I guess that's exactly why we're here. And I wanted to talk to you today, Michael, because that is something that you can do. But I just wanted to reassure everybody that's listening, that is a perfectly sane and normal response, but you have to then take action when you recognize that that is how you feel. 

Now, Michael, you shared a couple of examples of people that you have worked with quite recently, actually. And your clients are a little different to mine. My clients, the people that I work with, because it suits my style, tend to be a bit further down the investment journey. They've usually got a lot of business experience. They've usually got properties under the belt quite established. Businesses, they're moving a bit faster. They've already

Andy Graham (38:11.374)

crossed this execution gap. I'm typically helping them accelerate it. My programs are actually called Accelerator and Accelerator Plus. But you talked to me about some of your clients and how you've helped them. And there was a a few good examples. I mean I think one of them, if I remember rightly, was Tom. And I think it was a project you did with Tom in Norwich. Can you just give us a very higher level? Like what sort of circumstances were involved for Tom? Why did he come to you and actually what were you able to help Tom do that he perhaps wouldn't have been able to do independently?

Michael Taylor (38:40.33)

So Tom was brand new to property investing. He also works within the healthcare sector, but he knew again, I in many ways, like me a few years ago, he knew that he needed to be doing something else. So, as I say, brand new to property investing. And we basically worked together. He found a suitable property, he renovated, he turned it into an HMO, he added six thousand pounds in equity and it's now generating fifteen hundred pounds a month in recurring revenue. 

But for Tom, we just got Tom moving. Again, he'd had the education, but was just struggling to get past that thinking phase. He was, like you say, going round in circles, thinking about lots of what ifs, worried about the unknown unknowns. 

Andy Graham (39:24.024)

Has he moved on to his own project now, Michael. Tom now sort of just doing schemes independently.

Michael Taylor (39:28.268)

He's now looking for his next project. Exactly. So he worked with me, we got him through his first project and now he's looking for his second one on his own.

Andy Graham (39:36.206)

And I mean, that project I think you said it's netting so fifteen, sixteen hundred pounds. I mean, that's a fantastic project. I think right, it's a part time salary, isn't it, for most people? And you don't need to do many of those to be able to go and spend six weeks away every every summer like you.

Michael Taylor (39:51.054)

Correct. Correct. So he's a happy bunny and he's yeah, getting on with his next project.

Andy Graham (39:56.398)

I think there was also a client of yours called Matthew that you shared with me. Is that right? Maybe Matthew and you supported Matthew doing a project sort of perhaps closer to where you're based?

Michael Taylor (40:06.634)

Correct. So Matt did a project in Portsmouth, which is along the south coast, which is where we're based. I sourced him a suitable project. So he had a few properties, he'd done a few buy to lets he'd never done an HMO. He was looking for something, from an income point of view, he was looking for a project that generated a bit more income for him. And again, he had educated himself and he knew that HMOs was what he wanted to do, but again, had got himself stuck.

And was worried about his unknown unknowns. He wasn't sure about the project. So he wasn't sure about where to buy, who to rent to. But he just knew that HMOs was something he wanted to look at. We sourced him a property, so we found a property for him that would work as an HMO. In fact, it already was an HMO. It was a five bed, but we could see that it would work as a seven bed. So it had planning for five beds already. He bought it. We got planning for seven. 

He completely refurbed it and he actually on his project he added a hundred thousand pounds worth of equity and his project is fully managed and now generates thirteen hundred pounds just over thirteen hundred pounds a month for him and he's fully managed so he does none of the day-to-day whatsoever he's a good example of somebody I mean he barely spends a couple of hours a month on his property it's there it sits there every month 1300 pounds ish just over drops into his account and again very happy with that. 

He is now thinking about a second project, but actually that 1300 a month was what they were looking for actually, just in terms of their own finances. So he's now thinking, do you know what? This is I'm pretty settled with that. But again, great project, done well. We got it done on time, on budget, et cetera, et cetera. And he's very happy with that.

Andy Graham (41:55.47)

And I am presumably that's something that Matt would have just found really difficult to do on his own. I mean, the understanding that you could turn that into a seven bed, first of all, the method through planning, delivering the project. Presumably Matt wasn't very involved in the refurb project himself, or did he manage that? You did all of that.

Michael Taylor (42:13.698)

Yes, we did it together. So he was keen to be involved because he wanted, like I said, had the education, but he was just keen to sort of see what was happening. And so he was absolutely involved up to a point. But yeah, otherwise I was very much managing that for him, making sure that the right stuff was getting done at the right time.

Andy Graham (42:32.34)

Mm. It sounds like a really, really great deal and clearly, you know, adding over a hundred thousand of capital volume. I mean, most of that that's a lot of in day one capital coming back out of that deal. I think there was another example that you'd shared with me, a client of yours that had generated sort of about a similar amount, but actually I think the net was even more. I think my notes say it was it was James, is that right?

Michael Taylor (42:53.006)

James, yeah. So James is London based. James came to us, pretty much the first thing he said when we spoke was he said, I've spent two years going round and round and round in circles, just not knowing what my next step is, not knowing or having the confidence to know where to buy and just to get on with it. He was investing with his brother. They've got a business up in London. It's doing great. And again, he wanted to invest in HMOs. He knew that he wanted to invest some money into HMOs again to generate some more income. But he was just stuck. 

Everything we've talked about already today, he'd had his education, but he just didn't know really the next step, didn't quite know where to invest, how best to do it, etc. He'd had so many voices, he was listening to so many different opinions. And he was just like, I just need someone just to hold my hand and to take me through this. So this was a project that he did. So I supported him with this one rather than doing it myself. Again, found him a suitable project.

It was a normal residential property that he converted into an HMO. It was a three-bed terrace. It's now a seven-bed, all-en suite, high-end HMO. He added, I think it's just about 90,000 equity. And this now generates over 1,800 pounds a month for him. So and he's already now got on with his second project and is getting on with that without my help at all. So he's essentially we've worked together for him to find that confidence, to find that clarity that he needed to walk him through the project step by step and give him the confidence to then go on and do his next projects by himself. And that's perfect really. That's exactly what we're here for.

Andy Graham (44:29.272)

Well, it's funny because it's such an obvious gap, the execution gap. And I can see why just being able to just bridge that gap, just get the first deal done and then actually have all of that knowledge in hand with that first project under your belt means you can just crack on independently and really start to roll things out if that's what you want to do. And clearly yeah, you're very good at this, Michael. A good teacher, a good educator, but your job, your role, your whole background is about acting, applying that knowledge base with that subjective knowledge base with kind of actually doing stuff, executing, implementing it in practice in the field. These are great examples and they all sound like really fantastic projects. And those aren't typical projects for people getting started at all. As in people I've met that have done their first projects, that is not typically the story. Usually they've been very painful exercises. They've taken a long time.

They've not made anywhere near as much money. The cash flow at the back end is much narrower because they've taken on additional costs through the project to maybe even still have to pay an investor back. They are kind of really gold standard results, but actually they shouldn't be gold standard. They should be the standard. New investors should feel confident that they can achieve this sort of thing, but it might just be thinking about how and with whom they need to work to actually do it and to pull all of these different parts and all these anxieties and concerns and knowledge together to actually execute it in the right way.

Michael Taylor (45:57.28)

Exactly that. And I'm pretty passionate about that. I've just if I look at what property's done for me and us and our family, I've hosted networking meetings for many years. Time after time I just see folk who they come to meetings and they have some education. They know they're really they're stuck in their day job. They're stuck in the eat, work, sleep routine, they're looking for something else, but they come and just go, I just can't do it. It's too much stuff.

Too many unknowns, like the risk is too high, them whatever, whatever. Like they just come up with all of these reasons. And I'm so passionate about helping these guys to invest in property, especially in HMOs, because I know what it can do for people. I know how it can benefit their lives and their income and their work lives, etc. And as you say, like these deals, like these may not be typical deals, but they can be typical deals. These deals are out there that first time investors absolutely can be doing. And if you get the right team around them, the right power team, the right support, then these deals are absolutely cross run. I'm pretty passionate about helping folk with that. 

Andy Graham (47:00.172)

Well let’s talk about that very quickly then before we wrap today's episode on. I said at the beginning of the episode, we were really, really excited to have you join us, Michael, as a consultant. This is something that, as all of my listeners and anybody who works with me will know that I am very, very protective over our community and the advice that we give and share, and the people that we point our community towards to work with. They are all the most trusted people that I and we know.

And we spend so much time deliberating and testing and making sure that we are really, really comfortable to recommend people. It's that important to us. But we're super excited to have you on board as a consultant. And I just wanted to share very quickly with our listeners today what it is that you're actually going to be able to offer. Because I do think that this is a complete game changer. I can't do this. I'm not the right person to fill this gap. We've been looking to find you for a long, long time. But just talk to us very, very briefly about what it is that you're gonna be doing for us, Michael, and what does working, what will working with you look like?

Michael Taylor (48:08.832)

Yes. So we're gonna be launching the blueprint and the blueprint plus. So blueprint, this is a done with you program. So this is for educated investors with funds who are ready to move. So this is not education, this is action. Right. So this is not general coaching. This is for one specific project that you have or that you're looking for. We can source if needed, but then it's a high touch regular contact twice a week, helping you, making sure that you're making the right decisions at the right time. 

So we will support you to get your HMO projects done. And then you do your first one. And then if you want to use us again, great. If not, you can go off and do it by yourself, knowing that you've bridged that gap between your education and your execution. The blueprint plus, now this is a done for you project. So this is where perhaps again, you know that you want to invest in HMOs, you've educated yourself, you have funds, you're ready to move, but maybe you've not quite got the time. Maybe you are nervous about the lack of confidence or lack of clarity. And you just think, do you know what? For my first project, I'd like someone to do it for me. And we'll do that for you. Hands off. You can be involved as literal as much as you want to be. But essentially, we will sort you out with an HMO that will be ready to go at the back end. 

And again, it's getting people moving. It's giving people hopefully the clarity and the confidence to get over that execution gap, move from just having an education to actually owning HMOs and having some of the benefits of regular income that we all know HMOs can provide.

Andy Graham (49:56.334)

Thank you, Michael. And I just want to add to that that when we sat down to initially talk about this, which was some time ago now, and we've been planning this and looking to refine it and bring it online at the right time. But I was so excited about this because I knew that this was something that I myself couldn't do and I'm not able to do. I'm not the right person to do, but you clearly are. But we also took some of the elements from my programmes, which have been super successful in their own right. My clients have achieved some really incredible things and we took elements of that to really refine your programme. 

So this is very much something that Michael and I have put together. Michael is the man to do it. Michael has been getting these results with clients already. We're only now just making this publicly available. There are only a very small number of seats. Understandably, Michael can't work with too many people at this sort of level with that much hands-on support. This is all about action. And it's not a coaching, a generic coaching program. This is not an off-the-shelf product. So just want to make everyone aware that there are very, very, very limited number of spaces to work with Michael available. 

But I do think, in fact, I've got absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there are a lot of people listening today who are in that spot. They've been thinking about it and for various reasons haven't done it and they just need that help to execute. Well, Michael is clearly the guy to help you. Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the show today and and being so honest about everything that you've talked about, your journey, how you've helped clients, I suppose the execution gap that I think we now all completely get and we can all see. I think this has been genuinely one of the most interesting conversations I think we've had on that show. We've talked really honestly about what is a genuinely difficult subject, heard some of your real stories about Tom and Matthew and James and that that useful context there. And I think for those people either listening for the first time or just getting started, I think that they've now finally just got a name for what has been holding them back. But they also have a really clear solution. And that is, of course, coming and speaking to you, potentially working with you. 

So for anybody who does want to find out a little bit more about Michael's programs, just head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk right now. There's a section for mentorship, and you'll see a drop-down page for Michael. It is that easy. Alternative, just send us an email to info@thehmoroadmap.co.uk, and we'll put you directly in.

Andy Graham (52:17.87)

contact with Michael. But Michael, thank you again for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure and we are so looking forward to you now playing a really pivotal role here at the HMO Roadmap and the HMO community. Thank you so much.

Michael Taylor (52:31.616)

Thanks Andy, what a privilege. Love it. I can't wait. Thanks for having me.

Andy Graham (52:41.934)

That's it for today's episode, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. Big thank you again to Michael for joining us. As I said, I'm so excited about Michael's new role with us here at the HMO Roadmap. Now, if anything did resonate with you from today's discussion, don't hesitate. Just head to theHMORoadmap.co.uk right now and book your free strategy call with Michael. Do it before he gets booked up. He has only got a few slots, he can only work with a few people.

This is honestly one of the best times that I've seen in the last couple of decades to be buying and developing HMOs. So don't miss this opportunity. Thanks again for tuning in and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another instalment of the HMO podcast.