My Honest Thoughts on AI, Property Investing & Building Wealth (Six Rounds with Dan Hill)

This week's episode is a little different.

I recently joined Dan Hill for a Six Rounds episode of The Blueprint Podcast, where the format is simple: six surprise topics, no preparation, and no idea what's coming next.

It made for a really honest conversation as we shared our thoughts on property investing, entrepreneurship, AI, the UK economy and what it really takes to build long-term wealth. We also explored the lessons we've learned over the years, how our thinking has evolved, and some of the habits and principles that continue to shape the way we do business today.

If you've ever wondered how experienced investors think about risk, opportunity and the future of the property market, I think you'll really enjoy this one.

🎯 What You'll Learn

• What we'd do differently if we were starting again
• Our top property investing tips after years in the industry
• How AI is changing business and why it's only just getting started
• Our thoughts on the current UK property market and where we see opportunity
• The mindset and habits that have had the biggest impact on our success
• Simple business and productivity hacks we use every day
• Why reputation, relationships and long-term thinking matter more than ever

I hope you enjoy this special crossover episode as much as I enjoyed recording it.

💻 Resources & Mentions

• Join my Accelerator Programme: If you’d like my direct input on your current or next project, you can watch this video or book a complimentary strategy call with me here.
• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• Facebook Community: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside The HMO Community here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe and drop a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify - it helps more investors find the show!

Transcript

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Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.814)

Today I'm sitting down with Dan Hill for an episode on the Blueprint Podcast. Now if you don't already know, Dan is a hugely successful entrepreneur both in property and in business. I'm a big fan of Dan, I'm a big fan of Dan's work, I'm a big fan of what Dan says. And this was a really great opportunity for me to get to know Dan a little bit more but also have a very interesting conversation about property and business which of course I absolutely relished.

Now Dan and I actually went head to head for six rounds, we essentially discussed six surprise topics with no preparation. We tackled everything from property investing to business to AI to success, life changing moments. And I think you're going to find this is a very raw and very honest episode. I think you're going to find it quite unique, certainly in terms of what you are familiar with hearing on the HMO podcast. And I hope you find it interesting, inspiring, motivating, encouraging, and a whole lot more. So get yourself locked in. And please sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode of the HMO podcast.

Andy Graham (01:41.286)

Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future. 

We've also got guest workshops added every single month, we've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics, we've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you, we've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from, and we've also built an application just for you, that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. 

To find out more, head to theHMORoadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:48.206)

First one then Dan, you and I think about the same age and I've been thinking backwards as well as forwards more so as I found out getting older so my question, well first one is about reinvention if you could turn back time Dan, do things differently would you and if you were to do anything differently what would you do differently and why?

Daniel Hill (03:10.914)

Great question. I think the reinvention and life chapters is really good. I think I'm on Dan Hill 3 or 4.0 at the minute. And when I go back, there's chapters of 10 years where I've been very different people, different stages in life, different perspectives, different attitudes, different views. If I was going to do anything different, the only thing I would do is I would probably, I've only really prioritized my health properly in the last five years. And I think really I'm now paying the price of some of the decisions I made in my 20s. Perhaps I neglected it or even worse, burnt the candle at both ends. So my initial thought would be health. What about yours.

Andy Graham (03:44.866)

Health’s always been a big one for me, but I think I have prioritized that partly because I really enjoy it love it and I struggle to do a lot of other stuff if I wasn't finding time to just switch off when I'm doing sport and exercise and other things like that. There are other health elements that I've probably done a little bit too much up in the past that I've sort of corrected over last five ten years But I think one of the big ones for me is my attitude towards risk I think I've found and I've heard you talk about this a lot that as I've got older I've become much more risk aware not necessarily more risk, concern or conscious, just more aware of risk and the role that it plays. 

I think looking back, the stuff that I would have done as a younger boy, maybe even at school, through college, through university, that I would have done differently. I definitely would have pushed myself to go out and get outside of my small group of friends, that network, who I love, but just there was other stuff out there that I didn't really think about, probably didn't have the confidence. And I think I would have pushed myself into other spaces and tried new things and probably just tried to find ways of getting a bit more self-belief than I might be able to do stuff. 

I think one of the things I'd have possibly done as well is try to move a bit faster, if I'm really honest. I think that I came through the usual academic route and I wasn't really pushed too hard and I found that I've really enjoyed pushing myself and finding what I can do and how far I can go with the ideas that I've got, but I didn't do that when I was younger. Part of me just wonders whether anything would have been different, whether I might have achieved different things or got different results had I just put my foot down a little bit.

Daniel Hill (05:16.152)

I think it's horses for courses because I look back with the risk is definitely a key shift as well, different chapter for me. Now, back then I had nothing to lose. When you were saying about younger, when you looked at yourself younger, I was thinking you were going to say how high your risk appetite was. I mean, I was like fearless. I would jump off garage roofs on a skateboard. I would like spend my whole student loan in the first week of university on a new business idea. I bought, I was selling hoodies on the hottest day of the year.

Things I look back now and I just think they were bonkers. I don't know how I had the, like, was brave enough to do it. But actually, I think it was just like entrepreneurial, optimistic, naivety, which is actually a great thing to have. Now I don't, you know, then I had nothing to lose. Now I've got nothing to gain. So it's a very different mindset.

Andy Graham (05:59.791)

Yeah, I really admire that. I didn't have that entrepreneurial sort of spirit when I was younger. I found it as I got older and I think it was there but it was just dormant.

Daniel Hill (06:08.942)

What was like the penny drop for you?

Andy Graham (06:11.214)

Well the story here, we might end up over the 10 minute limit for for that, but I'll give you the quick version. Some of my listeners will know this and there's people that I'm more familiar with, but when I was in my early twenties, so very shortly after uni, I'd started building my business, buying real estate and I still a physio at the time, but I started to get unwell, had a really uncomfortable neck and the short version of that story is I ended up being diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And I was super fit or surfing every day, maybe even a couple of times a day.

Feeling otherwise really good, perhaps a little bit stressed because my neck was feeling uncomfortable and for period of time just, they couldn't figure out what it was. I suppose the diagnosis was really was just, you're a bit anxious, Andy, there's nothing really going on. And it transpired that there was something going on that needed sorting, but being that young and that fit and having everything ahead of me to suddenly get that sort of shell shock piece of information, it completely changed the way I thought about everything and it was that, that was the penny drop because I was enjoying things like snowboarding, I loved to go fast, whatever it was. 

I did have an appetite for risk, but I wasn't applying it to these different areas of my life. And I thought after that, that, you know, who knows, you know, it's super precious. Who knows how long you're going to be here. It sounds morbid, but it really changed my attitude towards life entirely. And I've really sort of ran with that quite literally since and

Daniel Hill (07:35.192)

So we're not entrepreneurial before that?

Andy Graham (07:36.822)

No, I don't think, I think I was leaning into an academic route. I was buying some property, but I didn't think it was going to be what it has become. And certainly now what I think it will continue to become. So.

Daniel Hill (07:47.822)

What do you think about these chapters? we would say your next chapter or if you were to give it, let's say they're chapters of a book, what would you say the current chapter of your book is and what would you say the next one's going to be?

Andy Graham (07:57.762)

I think I'm in chapter two. Chapter one for me was finding my feet. Chapter two was actually unlocking that entrepreneurial spirit and actually realizing that I was far more capable of doing a lot of stuff that I thought I was and actually doing some really good stuff with it. I've now got to a position in life where it's really enjoyable. I've got stuff.

Daniel Hill (08:18.446)

What would the title of this chapter be for you? 

Andy Graham (08:20.61)

Foundation. Okay, nice. And I think that the next one for me is possibly something about legacy. Not in the sense that it's all to pass down. I haven't made decisions on that sort of stuff, but I want to do something special. It's well beyond financial goals and objectives. Of course, that's still definitely part of the decision making process behind most of the stuff I do in business, but I want to do some really cool stuff. There's projects and I want to see how far I can go with it. So I want to see what I can do and what that legacy might look like. 

And actually it's interesting question because I feel like I'm very much on the precipice of that now having come out of some really interesting projects and schemes and being in really good place in business.

Daniel Hill (08:59.436)

Yeah, nice. And legacy, when you think about legacy, because I've changed a lot in the last couple of years about my view of legacy, what would your view of legacy be? What's your definition of it?

Andy Graham (09:09.314)

Yeah, I think my focus is much less so on assets and finance and things like that. I think a lot of it will be about people's opinions of me and the reputation that I have had and the mark that I've left on other people. The example that I've possibly led, I've got a daughter now, Isla, she's 18 months. I've been following your journey and I think there's a lot of similarity.

Daniel Hill (09:32.664)

How have you found that chapter introducing a baby to the world?

Andy Graham (09:35.168)

I've loved every minute of it. It has been incredible and completely life changing. And I think it's that whole piece around purpose has just clicked for me. It sounds super cliche because I've heard it before, but I think you've got a chance. So, you know, you get it. And all of a sudden so much other stuff doesn't matter and this other thing matters so much more. And I just think it's the most amazing thing.

Daniel Hill (09:59.79)

I remember watching an avowal ravican or listening to a podcast of his and he said about having kids and he said, if you really want to answer the meaning of life question, having a child doesn't just answer it, it just gets rid of it. Because before that, when I was growing the businesses and achieved a lot of things I wanted to do, I started to really ask deeps. I went very spiritual for a while. I've actually come back to my spirituality recently, which I'm enjoying. But I was like, what is the actual point? I thought it was going to be champagne corks and rainbows. And actually nothing's really changed internally. Externally lots of things have changed and actually having a daughter and having a child, do you'll have any more?

Andy Graham (10:34.744)

For sure. Yeah. I mean, if we're fortunate enough to have more, but yeah. And I think when I look ahead as part of what I want life to look like and be like, it isn't money, it isn't cars, it isn't that stuff. It's that dinner table. It's just that scene with the kids around the table, good chat, loads of fun, bit of chaos, dogs in the background. Just for me, that is the whole purpose. And it has only been unlocked the last couple of years.

And I kind of love the idea of now being in pursuit of that, but I want to be able to sit at that dinner table and be content, which means other stuff has got to be taken care of. There's still a huge priority of making sure the business and other areas of life.

Daniel Hill (11:14.35)

Absolutely. And I did the whole romantic full-time available retired dad thing. And after six weeks, I was like, this isn't for me. This is however controversial it is to say. Having a daughter actually made all bits of my life better. Because before that all I had was work and then my social life, my partner and my relationship with my partner. But now I've got my family life, including my partner and my daughter. I've got my work life and I've got my own life. And I never had those before. I just worked really. I was just work and then outside of that, just have some fun.

Nice. Okay, that was good on start off. Let's go for a rapid fire one. So the aim of the game here is we're just going to go to and from as quick as possible. Property top tips. So just quick top tips that you think would add value.

Andy Graham (11:55.904)

Know your location. Cool. Know your numbers.

Daniel Hill (11:58.728)

I would say buy cheap, you make your money when you buy.

Andy Graham (12:01.998)

I'm going to say people, relationships.

Daniel Hill (12:05.102)

Definitely. Yeah. Have the best professionals and also don't trust the professionals. Like I'll tell them what to do. I would say everything takes longer and costs more than you think.

Andy Graham (12:13.07)

100% yeah I would say cover the downside

Daniel Hill (12:16.462)

Yeah, I would hope for the best, expect the worst.

Andy Graham (12:20.034)

Yeah, absolutely. I would say, okay, don't let your ego talk you into deals.

Daniel Hill (12:27.342)

100%. Yeah. There's so many people doing deals that don't make money because they want to post it on social media. Yeah. Yeah. Just do the ones that make money. I would say inch wide, mile deep. People do one HMO, then one SA and then they never really get any good at anything. Choose one strategy you really like and then double down and do a hundred of them.

Andy Graham (12:42.85)

Yeah, love that. I'm going to say keep it simple, which there's definitely some overlap there with yours, but I think you can look at a lot of schemes and overcomplicate actually the best way to make money out of it. And I have definitely done that before.

Daniel Hill (12:54.232)

Yeah, easily done. I would say auction at the minute, there's great deals to be done pre and post. It's a funny time in the market at the minute. Maybe we'll talk about later, but deals at the minute, I'm seeing great deals before the auction and after the auction, nothing in the room.

Andy Graham (13:06.594)

Yeah, I'm going to say timing and I think you can apply that element to, yeah, when you buy, but also when you start projects, when you're looking to exit projects, what you do when you exit because of what's going on elsewhere in the world or around you. Timing is so important.

Daniel Hill (13:18.894)

I would say thin ice is like appreciate that the minute the market is on very thin ice. We just won news report away from interest rates spiking, inflation spiking, finance market collapsing, build costs making builds unviable. I think just we're on thin ice. Don't jump on it.

Andy Graham (13:36.076)

Yeah. Okay. I guess enjoy it. This game is hard. You know, and I know that this is a really tough game. And I think if you're not enjoying it on the most part, it's a really, really tough way to make a living, if I'm really honest.

Daniel Hill (13:49.314)

I would say focus on wealth over riches. like focus on acquiring assets and building a balance sheet and having low gear in rather than the size of your house. I mean, obviously I've played all these games the wrong way as well, but I would say it's all about being wealthy, not about being rich. It's about how much you own, not how much you earn.

Andy Graham (14:07.262)

Whether or not this is in contradiction to what you've said Dan, I don't think it is, but what I'm going to say is cash flow of a capital. And what I mean there is I do a lot of bigger deals and it's like being in the desert. There's just money being poured into it and nothing comes back. It's very, very dry. It'd be very difficult to do that without that cash flow, that sort of recurring stability in the background.

Daniel Hill (14:26.456)

Really great point. And I actually was being interviewed by somebody yesterday on their podcast. And we were talking about don't do deals within your sphere of confidence or competence. Do it within your realm of affordability. So if you can afford, if you've got half a million quid around you, do a deal that's 300 grand. If you've got a million quid around, you do a deal that's 800 grand. If you've got a million around, you don't go and do a deal that's 10 million. Because when it goes over budget, delayed, refurb, or refinance comes in under, you're stuffed.

If you can't hold it for a decade, don't hold it for a day.

Andy Graham (14:58.766)

I'm going to say, be patient. And I think that not talking specifically about deals, I'm talking about all the, some of the key decisions that you might need to make along the way. Some have got to be made quickly and it should be clear when you do, but some things just need to be approached with a bit of patience. Pushing contractors too hard, pushing sellers or buyers too hard. Sometimes you can overcook things and that's definitely a skill that I've had to learn over the years.

Daniel Hill (15:25.87)

I think on that as well, the numbers are the numbers. Like when you say about pushing a main contractor, you could get some young gun main contractor to convince himself or herself that the bill is going to be 500 grand when you know it should be 700. And they might agree to sign the contract and you've got their head on the block. But when they run out of cash and the plaster's not even dry on the wall, you're still going to be stuffed. So I've made that mistake a few times and actually the numbers are the numbers. there's ways you can engineer them.

Andy Graham (15:52.366)

Last one for me, be fair. I think that it's easy to stack deals that are too heavily favoured and it creates too much pressure, sometimes resentment. It could be with business partners, it could be from other stakeholders in the deal. I think if you can find a fair deal and everyone wins, everyone makes money, everyone gets to benefit from it in the way that they need to, you'll always get the best outcome.

Daniel Hill (16:14.637)

Great. It's got to be win, win, win. Everyone wins, right? Relationships over transactions. I think it takes 20 years to build a reputation and 20 seconds to ruin it. play the long game. There's very few people in this game that have been around 10, 20 years.

Andy Graham (16:27.958)

Reputation for me, Dan. If you'd have asked me what one of the most important things to me in business is, I would say it is reputation. And I've become more aware of that as I've got older, just how important that is and the compounding value of a good reputation. It's so, so incredibly important.

Daniel Hill (16:44.046)

Still got three and half minutes left. Let's switch on to strategies and just rattle through as many property strategies as we want. And we'll both give our one sentence overview of pros and cons. You kick it off, you choose one. HMOs. Well, I say I hate HMOs. But I did used to have a thousand HMO rooms. So I obviously know the benefits. I say the benefit without a doubt is life changing income in three or four properties. The downside is they're noisy.

Andy Graham (17:07.288)

Yeah, HMOs for me, the right HMOs, super predictable, super stable. A lot of my work has been in the student space. I've still got a real soft spot for student HMOs, but right stuff, right locations. It's so established and so reliant.

Daniel Hill (17:21.55)

SA

Andy Graham (17:23.054)

SA, yeah. So I don't like the unpredictability of SA. So that would be the big, big downside to me. Upside, you can make some really nice buildings and projects out of those sorts of schemes. And I've really enjoyed that kind of passion element of it.

Daniel Hill (17:38.638)

Yeah, I've probably struggled to come up with too many benefits. I think it's really good because it's short term, it's flexible. If you've got a site you're getting planning on, you could probably wash its face for a few months. We've got a site at the minute that we're doing some asset management on. We might SA it for a few months. Unless it's really niche, you like you own a flat next to Buckingham Palace and it was let all day, every day, 365 days a year. I think the benefit is it's flexible. The downside is it's noisy, it's unpredictable, it's seasonal. It's got so many variables. The platforms have most of margin. And I would say it's a mature strategy now. What else we got?

Andy Graham (18:17.762)

For me on so in terms of strategy. 

Daniel Hill: What about like build to sell? Have you done build to sell?

Andy Graham: I have done build to sell. And I hate it. Yeah. I absolutely hate it. So pros and cons, pros, liquidity. This is a tough game to do if you haven't got cash in the bank. So that liquidity is so important, but it's also again, very difficult to rely on having that predictability and it's easy to get yourself in a real pickle, especially where you're in a market like the one we are at the minute when affordability is a struggle and there's restrictions from the banks in terms of lending. Appetite's not there.

Daniel Hill (18:42.062)

In the current market, would say it's in the main strategic suicide. I would say it's not the right market to do it. It's challenging in the best of times. I've been building houses for 25 years. So I know I've seen it go up and I've seen it come down drastically. The benefit, I would say, large capital events. There's not many businesses, unless you're to sell a business, there's not many businesses you can own or property strategies you can do where you genuinely can make 300, 500, a million quid in cash in like two or three years. That's a big benefit.

The downside is I think it's got every single slice of risk you can have. You've got the land risk, you've got the planning risk, you've got the finance risk, you've got the build cost risk, you've got the compliance risk. And even if you get all the way to the end where you're on time and on budget, you've got to rely on the market being as good as it were two years ago when you started or better. And in many cases, especially now, I wouldn't bet a horse that alone my house on what the market is going to be like in a year's time.

Andy Graham (19:36.118)

And then you get a sale lined up. Yeah. Three months into it, the buyer changes the mind or their circumstances change.

Daniel Hill (19:41.068)

In England, you've got nothing you can do about it. Nice. It was good. A B C E. Your round.

Andy Graham (19:43.776)

It's really really tough.

Andy Graham (19:49.178)

Okay. AI and the future of Great Britain, Big topic at the minute. I've been thinking about this a lot, to implement it in my business in as many ways as possible, but I'm keen to get your thoughts on it and see where you're going with this.

Daniel Hill (19:59.79)

Because I thought it was a bit left field. It's actually one of my topics as well. So yeah, AI takeover without a doubt. My thoughts are, I've gone through three sort of mindsets for this. Initially, I thought this is just going to be the next dot-com boom. It's the next fad. It's the next thing that's going to end the world. I took it with a pinch of salt and sort of stood back and watched it develop. Then about three months ago, when overnight, everything changed with like ChatGPT, Claude, Manus. And you started to see what it was doing.

And it went from being very average to being exceptional overnight. I was like, wow, this is serious. This is really, really big. And now I think it's hit next plateau where I think actually it's like one, it's sort of the new normal. When you get a new function on ChatGPT or Manus, the first time it does it, you're like, wow, I can't believe it's just created a video out of an image of a building for me. But then the next time you do it, why is it so slow? Like, come on, quick, quick, quick, quick. So I it becomes the new normal really quick.

And people say it's going to take over the world. If you've walked around here, Doncaster city center, or rather near me, city center, nothing's changed there for a hundred years. Like AI is not going to come in and get rid of everyone's jobs and stuff like that. Yes, it's sort of incredibly powerful and people who leverage it, which is probably like the top five or 10%, I think it's like wearing a, I've seen those exoskeletons, the army wear where they can, a normal individual can put it on. It weighs next to nothing. You can still run a seven minute mile in it.

But you can pick up a ton in weight because you've got this exoskeleton that's like hydraulically powered. I think AI is like that. It takes your brain from a 10 to a thousand in a second. And now I use ChatGPT for artwork a lot. And to be able to talk into it, it's like having a graphic designer who knows your topic, subject, content inside out, and it still blows my brain. It's phenomenal. And then you go to Claude and Manus and that sort of stuff. So I think it's incredible.

I don't think it's anything to be scared of at the minute. I think it's more a competitive advantage to those who use it and it turbo charges you rather than a threat to humanity at the moment. That's what I think it is.

Andy Graham (22:00.846)

So what sort stuff are you guys doing in your businesses at the minute with AI? I know you mentioned some imaging, videos and stuff, but are doing anything else?

Daniel Hill (22:07.758)

So the basics is probably what all of our teams use. so ChatGPT would just be like a basic for researching, shortcutting, legal, just fast tracking things. That's been used a lot. Manus for marketing. So combination for the more advanced stuff. Like ChatGPT  would say, create a logo. So in fact, this is a good example. In April, I launched our own family office. And in March and February, I did the branding for it. It cost me about four and a half thousand pounds, took two months, and was me and a graphic designer.

The next brand we created, which was one of the products that we recently launched, was exactly the same process, but it cost $30 and it took about three days. Using ChatGPT to create the artwork and the brief, then asking ChatGPT to write a branding pack prompt for Manus, put it into Manus and it created a branding pack that a year ago you would have paid 10 grand for. And then from there you just say, do me a banner, do me a workbook, do me a landing page, do me a brochure, do me a lead magnet. It does work for you. So that is big for marketing.

And then for coding and finance, probably Claude code and Claude co-work just to be able to chuck stuff in it like finance appraisals. We get three finance appraisals, RFD just sticks it in Claude. It processes it, analyzes it, it asks what's missing, presents it in a way that your brain could do it, but it would take days and it would do it in 10 minutes. So it's like, I think it's like turning your brain from a 10 to a hundred. That's what I think it is. What about you?

Andy Graham (23:30.178)

So I feel like we're a little behind the curve if I’m honest in terms of just application to it. think like a lot of people, thought we could just use your pretty standard ChaGPT and stuff like that. And we did, and we have done for a long time, but actually the more I've started to learn about AI, the more I've realized that we're under utilizing its application. And I think what's interesting is there's a real danger of going down that rabbit hole so far you end up spending all of your productive time trying to do something really productive with the AI and then you're not actually achieving the objective, which is to be more productive as a business. 

But some of the stuff that we're doing, much like you guys, content, visual and video creation and things like that, but on more of an operations basis. And I'm really excited about this. The agentic AI and the benefits and the sort of the way that we can implement that in the businesses is really interesting. Automating workflows, reducing load on team members, in some cases, in all honesty, removing the requirement for certain roles or parts of roles and freeing people up to do other stuff. And I think that that's really exciting. 

Financial modeling, I think I was building a model recently and it was quite a complicated model and I couldn't get my head around a circular error that was in there and I just couldn't fix it. I was trying to just spend a bit of time here and there and I still couldn't get it no matter how fresh.

I was feeling when I sat down and looked at it and I was just having a chat with a friend of mine who's an accountant and he works in bio tech and he just said, what does Claude say? And I hadn't even thought about putting it into Claude and I hooked it up with Claude and my God, I couldn't believe how powerful it was, how quickly it did it and how efficiently and how accurate it was. It was a complete game changer for me and probably saved me a lot of time trying to correct it, but would have saved me hours of time.

Daniel Hill (25:16.878)

I think the other thing as well is, even though you can, doesn't mean you should. So like what you've said, on our board, the board that I mentor, a lot, a few of them went down the rabbit hole and all of a sudden you can create your own data analysis and dashboards and all this design stuff. And we're like, yes, you can. Cause I thought, right, for our family office, I'm going to create a dashboard for all the projects. And I thought, well, actually I'm not going to do it. So I'm going to get our project manager to do it. And I thought, well, if she does it, then she's going to have, there's going to be a point of weakness there. Cause if she decides to leave or she's off.

Nobody else will really understand how it works. And I was like, well, actually, we've got Basecamp already that we pay $30 for. It works. It's fine. Even though we can create our own, we don't have to. And also I don't want to be a graphic designer. I don't want to create logos. I don't want to do landing pages. So it's like, good to know it's there. Best thing to is still find a graphic designer, but one that uses that rather than old school like Illustrator or something.

Andy Graham (26:09.102)

I think that that is also one of the interesting thoughts about AI at the minute. Is AI going to replace lots of jobs or is it going to be there for people or potentially more jobs to utilize better? I mean, I'm interested to, I guess, get your thoughts done on what you think the impacts of AI on a broader scale, certainly looking at our economy, what you think the impacts of maybe reaching, well, we're already sort of looking at agentic AI but beyond that what do think this all looks like in one two three years time

Daniel Hill (26:41.4)

I think the hardest thing is it's really difficult to predict. I think I'm real optimist. So I tried not to dwell on what could go wrong, like the world ending and stuff like that. Although I've definitely been there. I was in Marbella on a friend's boat and woke up the next morning with a hangover and started listening to a Stephen Bartlett podcast about AI. And I had to turn it off because it put me in a world of pain. So since then, I've sort of distanced myself from the scaremongering. And the longer it goes, the more you see like

These things that happen are significant, but they also happen over a long period. You're like, well, chat GPT is going to change the world. It's probably been around for four years now and it's sort of got organically sort of better. One of my friends talks about two speed economy. So he says, the people who use it are just going to turbo charge and the people who don't are going to slow to a halt. I think that's so true. Same as any advancement. 

And yeah, I don't know. I think it's just going to turbo charge the gap. We talk about the wealth gap on property entrepreneur and I think it's really going to separate the do's and the do nots and the haves and the have nots dramatically. 

And yes, I think it will place jobs, but it's like, if you think about the UK, we've already, we've been under supplied for labor for years. Anyone who gets to do anything is rubbish service, rubbish quality, overpriced. That's the sign of an economy that's not hungry. It's lazy, basically. I think there's space to be able to create space, if you like. But like graphic designers, the stuff that I do now on a voice prompt to chatGPT,

And it's done in a minute that previously would have taken, it would have cost me a hundred pounds and taken a day including feedback. So that's definitely replacing stuff. But then surely the designers just start doing that bit. Cause you want to put the stuff in and you want to edit it at the end. You just don't want to do the, I still don't want to sit there and talk to ChaGPT about, please move that logo. It's still in the wrong place. So I don't know. It's my honest answer. I just think when you understand how good it is, do you use whisper flow?

Andy Graham (28:30.658)

been using whisperflow for a long time and I think it's a bit like whatsapp and my airpods I just think it's one of the most important things to my whole kind of business operation

Daniel Hill (28:39.308)

Yeah, now people don't use it. Are you still manually writing emails? If I get caught short on a train or whatever and I have to write an email, I'm like, this is going back in time. To press Mr. Float, just dictate it and then quickly, job done. I mean, that's where you start becoming a superhero. But how many people are doing that? Like I would say single digit percentages. 

Nice. Sort of leading on from that, but maybe taking a slightly different direction. The market, the economy, the industry, what's going on?

Andy Graham (29:08.896)

This is such an interesting question right now and I spend a lot of time thinking about that. I'd prefer not to spend as much time thinking about it as I do, but I'm in the market and I think it very much sort of relates back to that conversation we had about risk. I think we are on a bit of a precipice, if I'm honest. I am an eternal optimist, Dan, but it's hard to look around at the minute and see that this kind of proverbial mess that we found ourselves in is going to fix itself anytime soon.

Let's just start with some fundamental economics. I mean, we have a real problem in terms of productivity at the minute and we just have too much debt and we've got a big social welfare bill and there's a question of how do we get out of that? And without a pro-business government, it's really tough to see that there's an answer to that.

Daniel Hill (29:57.646)

How is the UK not in more trouble?

Andy Graham (29:59.406)

Well, I do sometimes wonder whether the data and the information that's been given to us is presented in a way to kind of just keep it where it sort of needs to be and not tip us over that precipice, but it's worrying. And I think that we're a few years away, another government away from something materially changing here. And I think we need other things on the global stage to kind of change as well to kind of help with that. But we're obviously still struggling with inflation. I mean, it's coming down. It's still a little bit too high, but

We can see how quickly that could change if they start bombing oil and gas stores around sort of Persian Gulf. That could be tomorrow. As we're sat here and talking about that, that would be pretty disastrous. Obviously swap rates and the markets are still very nervous. So interest rates are really not coming down as fast as we want to. And that's making it tricky for us in this game because we're looking at very expensive finance at the back end. So that builds a whole model, which is clearly what you and I prefer to do. It is still tough. You've got stress testing, it's really difficult on single unit stuff, high yielding stuff. I think obviously it still makes a lot more sense. And around all of this, we've got huge shortage of housing. So we still have this fundamental requirement to produce more housing. We've got changes in legislation, which is making it difficult and less attractive for people like us to stay in the game. So there's a real mix at the minute. And I think the fight was to step away from all of that right now with my sort of investor cap on.

What I see is a lot of opportunity there. There are a lot of problems. There is clearly some risk there, but there are a lot of people stepping away and saying, that's not for me. Not right now. I'm going to wait. And we talked about the deal that you recently did. That is clearly a by-product of all of this uncertainty and stuff going on in the market. There are good opportunities right now. And I think if you can stack them and more importantly, you can afford to get in the market and stay in the market until hopefully we reach some greener pastures.

I think that five, 10 years down the line, it's people like that that'll be looking around and thinking, that's where I made my money. I made a lot of money during that period of uncertainty, but it's a tough one. I think if I'm honest, you've got to have some pretty big balls to sort of, to want to take advantage of this stuff at the minute. I mean, what do you think?

Daniel Hill (32:11.054)

I think probably broadly aligned with the sentiment. do wonder, I mean, Elon Musk, when he did his stint in the Trump with the Department of Government Efficiency and all that stuff, somebody asked him when he come out of it, because obviously he was in there and got brainwashed in that whole politics bit for a bit, although he kept it quite pragmatic. He said, the one thing you learn about government is it's so broken, it can't be fixed. And I do look at it and I think, is this just what happens to a developed nation? If you look at the growing economies, like India, like Dubai, Saudi Arabia, UAE, other economies that are like actively growing, or even China over the last 10, 15 years, like taking people out poverty in the rice fields and bringing them into work and they're driven and they're hungry and this country's got this like anti-war like mentality that they're all in it together. That's how the sort of economy grows. And then Ray Dalio talks about the new world order. I don't know if you've read that or listened to it.

They want lunch breaks and they want holidays and they want benefits and they want social state and they want maternity leave. And obviously that is what you would expect to a degree. But then all of a sudden you end up with this social state like us. Over 50% GDP in the UK now is government spending. So by definition, there's an argument we're heading towards like a socialist style society economy. And actually the productivity is gone, the work ethic is gone, the commercial viability to a degree is gone. You then get into a power state like a labor government, where actually they're like, well, we need to tax more at the top to pay for more at the bottom. 

And actually just become slower and more lethargic and less commercially viable. And you're like, is it just actually, that's just the top of the curve. And then these countries eventually, you think the great British empire used to own most of the world. And does it just then death by a thousand cuts and gradually just sort of die a very slow, painful, long death over the next hundred years and the new powers of whoever it's going to be, China.

Another economy, they just take the lead really. So I don't know, I think big picture, that's what it is. Small picture today. I think all the things that are bad are just huge barriers to entry, which is good for us because low competition is high margins. I do think it's all a long game. And I do think there's this danger trap at the minute where you get into a point where yields are the same as interest rates. And on face value, unless you can find a way to really gear that yield up or pay that debt down, there isn't much of a cashflow margin. But still, we've found strategies and we're doing deals where

Daniel Hill (34:32.896)

I can't believe how good the market is. I'm doing a presentation on Friday at Property Entrepreneur and I've rated every single one of the 12 property cycles over the last 50 years and every one of the last five downturns over the last 50 years. And statistically now is undisputably the best market in the last 50 years because you've got access to deals and discounts because there's motivated sellers, no competition. You've got access to finance to buy deals. You've got an ability to add value or generate strong rental demand.

You can still get strong GDV end values. I'm getting stuff valued at the minute where I couldn't sell it for the prices I'm getting it revalued at. And then you've got exit finance. Yes, it's more expensive than it was five years ago, but they're the five things you need for a good market. Yes, Oxford, Bedford, where I'm from, certain places, it doesn't make any sense to do any deals there. Whereas certain pockets in certain cities, if you know what you're doing, I think it's incredible.

Andy Graham (35:28.078)

This conversation and I share the same thoughts has really forced me to have a rethink about my strategy actually. And I've really been focusing on that in the last six months. I've been doing a lot of larger commercial to resi projects, big capital schemes, really intensive, incredible schemes, but it's hard work and risk is certainly high. And I actually think that because of all these things, because of that higher barrier to entry, I think for anyone prepared to stay in the market, be a really good professional proficient operator.

I do think that there is huge scope to build really successful businesses in real estate over the next five to 10 years. I think we still need some of these other elements. We still need a relatively stable base to do that from, but I think operationally as well, I think because of all of this stuff going on, think if you can master that as a business owner, acquiring your assets, managing schemes and managing multiple schemes, managing tenants, which we know is hard work and asset management, financial management, you can do all of that well. I think that.

This does look like a very good opportunity, but it's a big commitment. I don't think it's something that you can do with one foot in and one foot out anymore. And I think that's a big, big, big change in the real estate world.

Daniel Hill (36:35.342)

I think it goes back to that analogy of the thin ice. I've got a planning app that went in yesterday or pre-planning app that went in yesterday to build 59 apartments. And today it's completely viable. I genuinely would not be surprised if in six to 12 months time when I actually get the planning granted, if it's no longer commercially viable to build it. Just because build costs are going up 10, it depends what you look at, between 5 and 20%, depending on the individual bit, at a broad stroke, 10 % per year, build costs are going up.

Properties flatlining or going up 2%. I think you've really got to know what you're doing. But equally, I think there's low competition and I think there's going to be even less. If you look at, I think we've lost the generation somewhere. The generation is behind us. I don't know what you see in maybe your friends, family, people you mentor of younger ages. The general vibe is not entrepreneurial, work ethic, smash it out of the park. From what I see and the general vibe is, to be honest, it's quite soft, it's quite wet, it's quite entitled.

I was chatting to a few friends who run nightclubs and event companies and they were saying the students coming through now at university, they just have this sense of entitlement. And I just think Dana White says it quite crudely. I won't say exactly how he says it, but he basically says, if you just got a little bit about you, you will separate yourself from the masses. And that's what it takes. There's very few, forget what the saying is, it like strong people bring easy times and then weak people bring hard times and then it goes around in a cycle.

And I think there's definitely that starting to come through.

Andy Graham (38:02.188)

I agree. And I see it a lot. We manage a lot of students and I do have to admit, like I look at what they're having to contend with at the minute and it is tougher than I think what we had to. It was much easier for me to get into the market 20 years ago than it is for them. But you still have to be proactive enough and stick your neck out enough and be prepared to actually roll your sleeves up and do the work. And I think you're right on the large part. There's an expectation that actually things should be a bit easier and we've become these fat cats as a nation, that's only been the case for the, since the sort of the fifties really. Pre that we were back to back wars and depressions and it was very, very tough to actually sort of get out of those very difficult times that people have found themselves in. So I think it's interesting to see where all this goes, but yeah, I think the key takeaway here for anyone younger listening today would be get out there, do it.

Daniel Hill (38:53.134)

Yeah, you have no competition. I literally paid for someone to do this year. I met them a pin meeting and they were so hungry, they were like 16. And I said, I will pay for you to do our, I literally paid on my own credit card for him to do our three day event. Cause I was like, if you get a break in life, you were going to kill it. Cause you just got that secret sauce.

Andy Graham (39:09.838)

Skillsets for success then.

Daniel Hill (39:11.608)

Cool. Well, I mean, we've just sort of bounced around it. I think maybe if I talk about myself, I would say what got me there was like, to me, it was life and death. I had complete conviction, tenacity, dedication, discipline. I would literally have died to be successful when I was younger. So for me, that was what I had. And then I think for other people that we mentor, I meet people at one of our events and they might be their first day on the program. And I'll say to Adam, who's our managing director, who runs the training company.

I'll say, I guarantee that person will be on stage winning awards, probably work for you as a speaker one day. And I can see him from a mile away there. They listen more than they talk. They ask great questions. They execute. They take advice. Yeah, I would say there's sort of things off the top of my head. They're the quick things I would grab at from personality traits. What about you?

Andy Graham (40:03.254)

There is something about certain people that you see it and there's this this all around them. And sometimes I find it difficult to kind of put my finger on exactly what it is, but I think that the way that they apply themselves to advice and ideas, I often find that there's a big discrepancy between people who don't get the results or get the results that they want as quickly as they would like them and those who do. I think one of the big things for me, and this is something that I had to learn as well, is focus. We've touched on focus already in this conversation, but I think focusing on that inch wide and mile deep. What do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? Figuring out how you're going to do it, who you're going to do it with before moving on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. 

And sometimes that focus needs to be taken into with consideration of what else is going on in life. We've all got busy lives. There’s always stuff going on, reasons why we couldn't or shouldn't do stuff. And I think we, to some extent, also have to be realistic. I can sit down with some people and they've got so much going on, full-time jobs, busy households. They're carrying a lot of credit card debt and they've got X, Y and Z things going on, new ventures. And what they want to do is maybe invest in real estate and get going. And sometimes I think the right thing to do is that, you need to stop pause and you just need to focus on what it is that you actually want to do. You need to cut away some of dead weight. You need to figure out a plan and then just focus on executing that. One of the most successful clients I ever worked with and he's a business partner now, but.

He's the single best example I've ever seen on it. It's like he went out with a laser and just did everything, bang, bang, bang, bang. And he got the best results that I've ever seen anyone do. And I've since learned so much from him. He came from a consulting background and his method of execution, because he's so capable of focusing, is just second to none. So that's a big one for me.

Daniel Hill (41:49.868)

Let's see, another one is on that same level is high standards. Do you find that as something to hold in quite high regard?

Andy Graham (41:55.886)

Definitely. So that legacy piece that we talked about, one of the things I would, I'd be mortified if I wasn't remembered for it, but was just following things through and doing it to the best of my ability, you whatever it is. And I think you do see that trait in entrepreneurs and successful business owners that they want to do what they can as best as they possibly can with the resources that they've got.

Daniel Hill (42:16.43)

I just think standards is I don't understand. I always say I have very high standards. So for example, all of our events, there's a blueprint for like where the pen goes, where the pad goes, how it's laid out, the angle that the banners need to be off the wall. And some people are like, you're bonkers, like you're actually nuts. I'm like, I can't believe that everybody doesn't expect that level of standard. And I'll go to other events, not to speak anyone down, but you can just see this is clear. People have like, people have different levels of eyesight, people have different levels of standard. And it's like, yeah, I just think the people that are high performers I know have very high standards of themselves and of others.

Andy Graham (42:49.534)

I'm the same my team I'll drive them mad because they'll send me something a document that just needs approving and I'll pick up on the slice detail and it probably Doesn't matter to most people but it really matters to me because it should be better. The standard should be higher

Daniel Hill (43:04.14)

just something that's not completely aligned. It's like, well, how you do one thing is how you do everything. That's not perfect. So it's binary, it's perfect, so it's not perfect.

Andy Graham (43:11.63)

But those are fairly arbitrary examples, I think that that value, I think it is a value actually, I think and I'm sure it's threaded through your entire business. Every single thing that you do, the way that you appraise your team, the way that you produce documents, the way that you execute and handle things, it's a value to me. And I think that upholding those values, it's hard sometimes as well because the easy thing would be to just...

Daniel Hill (43:33.46)

I just physically can't know. I don't know about you. I can't let it slide. I just can't.

Andy Graham (43:38.03)

It's the sort of thing I would loosely pove. The little details and knowing that we haven't done it as well as we should have done would drive me mad. It's like, it's really interesting. My uncle, a lot of my interests and I suppose inspiration in property came from my uncle, who's a builder, an incredible builder, and he's not with us anymore. But I remember once really vividly, we were doing some work on something and you wouldn't see the back of what it is that we working with. You would never, ever see it. It would be completely concealed. And his standard was to make sure that the backside of that was exactly as it should be clean, tidy, finished well. 

And I remember thinking, no one's going to see it. Why does it matter? And I get it now. And it's the same. It drives me mad if I go in and I see people have just swept stuff under the skirt, under the floorboards and just left all the crap there and put the floors back down. And it's just not the standard in our schemes that we work to. So I totally get it. Standard is so important.

Daniel Hill (44:29.484)

Yeah, nice. Right, last but not least, I would say we'll go for another quick fire one. We'll go two and throw each other. And we'll say for people who are listening, game changes that you've had or done in business, things like Whisper Flow, game changes in business and then life changes in life. Okay. To finish hacks, top tips, things that are game changes in business or life changes in life. Okay. Go for it.

Andy Graham (44:53.518)

I've got a studio display, big Apple screen, connect it to my laptop so I can pick up the laptop and go, but I've got my big studio display on my desk. And for years, I've only had about a year, I just use my laptop and what a game changer, like just the productivity that I've been able to get from having multiple screens and being able to see more, game changer.

Daniel Hill (45:12.952)

Yeah, nice. I would say life changer, fasting. I don't eat till 11 in the morning. I've got various things. I haven't been ill since December 2022, wood. And I think fasting in the morning is a huge part of my general wellbeing, productivity. I don't tend to eat till like 11, 12 o'clock. And I think life changer for general wellbeing, I think, and productivity.

Andy Graham (45:34.606)

Structure for me. So on a day to day basis, whether it's work, personal stuff, I need a structure. I can work outside of structure. I'm okay. I'm not really uptight. I can go away and holiday and just totally go with the flow, but I need structure to make sure I really get stuff done. And for me, I wake up without an alarm every day, but I get up at the same time every day. I take the dog for a walk every day. I train every day. I make sure I get my three or four meals every single day. That structure for me is the framework of being able to just get whatever results I need to get every single day.

Daniel Hill (46:04.684)

Yeah, same. Discipline is freedom, right? I would say WhatsApp web. I can't believe people sit there and type WhatsApp with it. My thumb actually hurts from younger years of doing so many WhatsApps. WhatsApp web. If anyone's still doing WhatsApp on their phone all day every day, yeah, that's a false economy. WhatsApp web with Whisper Flow.

Andy Graham (46:23.214)

I mentioned it very briefly earlier, but my iPods, I've had them for years and they are the single most valuable little techie possession that I've got. Just being able to just plug something in, talk on the go, do something on the go and still have my hands free. It sounds super simple, but I didn't use to do it. And I had cables dangling around and I would have my phone on speaker and trying to hold it. I'm sure loads of people are thinking, yeah, I mean, obviously they've been using it for years, but it's a fairly new discovery for me. And it's an absolute game changer.

Daniel Hill (46:51.502)

I would say life changer. As I alluded earlier, I've just recently gone back to spirituality. I did a lot of spirituality stuff from about 2018 to like 2024, 25. Fell out love with it for a couple of years. Not out love with it, just distanced myself from it for a couple of years. I've now gone back to it. it's just, I mean, you can read any spirituality, religious, if you actually get down to the fundamental text of what it means to live and be a good person and don't annoy your neighbor, don't hurt anyone, do the right thing.

I just think it's just so don't live a hurried life, slow and steady wins the race. I think that is a life changer for people who are that way inclined.

Andy Graham (47:31.214)

Okay, so another life changer for me then. It's really simple, but I think just doing things without expecting anything back, it's not something I think I used to do when I was younger. And I realize now just the value of just helping people and not expecting anything in return. And the universe just has this crazy way of at some point just rewarding you from it. It doesn't need to be a financial reward. It could be whatever. And it shows up in the strangest ways. And maybe that is just learning as time has passed now, but I think just doing things and not expecting anything in return. It's something that I am actively seeking to do. If I can see someone needs some help or they've reached out and they've got crickets, can I just do something to help them?

Daniel Hill (48:10.178)

I would say exactly the same life changer and game changer. I call them karma credits. I actually wrote a book that's on Amazon called Karma Credits. And I honestly think my success has been defined by the good things I've done because I can't believe how consistently lucky I've been with certain things. I honestly think it's from just good karma credits doing the right thing. So yeah, I would say the same karma credits. Back to you.

Andy Graham (48:33.236)

I think you're a few steps ahead on this one, Dan, but for me, driving less and being driven or using the train. And it sounds crazy, but I go down to London periodically and I would drive to London or not necessarily to central London, but areas in the Southeast and things like that. And actually jumping on the train, even if it might take me a little bit longer, just the productivity element and just the getting there, not being tired, not being stressed. It was as a game changer. And after I started really kind of doing that the last few years, I couldn't believe that I hadn't been doing that for years before.

Daniel Hill (49:06.178)

Yeah, absolutely. I anything that's sort of less than £20 an hour, you know, like cleaners, PAs, VAs, chauffeurs, anyone to help around the house, I think all of that is just worth its weight in gold. And it's not just the sort of time it buys back, it's the headspace, right? It's like, if you want to double down on your relationships, your family, your work, not having to worry about the shopping, the gardening, the lawns, the driving, I think all of that. Anything you can delegate, definitely.

Andy Graham (49:33.666)

Same vein but I'll give you another one another little life hack that I've been enjoying recently it's pre-made meals so I use Frive and I get five meals sent every Monday morning to the house and that's my lunch sorted high protein I eat a lot Dan so I couldn't I would really sure yeah I train a lot but the time-saving and just that not even having to think about where am I gonna get my lunch or what I'm

Daniel Hill (49:52.396)

I train a lot.

Daniel Hill (50:01.48)

And it's tasty as well.

Andy Graham (50:02.51)

It's so much better than anything I could do for sure. Very little cleaning up and things like that. Absolute game changer. It doesn't cost that much and saves a huge amount of time and it's really good for you.

Daniel Hill (50:12.066)

Yeah, nice. I would say unplugged walks and massages. For the last year or so, I've had a massage every week and unplugged walks, I've only just got back into in the last maybe like three months. It's just invaluable. Clear head, ideas, wellbeing, nature, all these sort of things.

Andy Graham (50:30.183)

Is it something you do on a daily basis?

Daniel Hill (50:33.39)

Well, yeah, I've just got a little habit because I've stopped wearing my fitness watch because I get obsessed with everything. And I was like, my resting heart rate is like one beat per minute. Was that caffeine? Was that sugar? Was that alcohol? Was that sleep? I had to just park wearing my watch. And there's a place I go for breakfast. I walk there in the morning, have my breakfast and I walk back. And that's my steps done for the day. And yeah, I would say like probably three out of five working days, I'll just do that. And if not, I'm fortunate enough to have like quite nice gardens and grounds, so I can walk around there, see the chickens, go around, look at the horses and stuff. So I'm like pretty fortunate for that. But unplugged is the key thing.

Andy Graham (51:07.726)

Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. So I've got a dog. Weirdly for me, having a dog was like the first real thing that I did, which was my signal that things are going well, because I could not be at work. I felt I could have a dog and I could be at home and be able to take the dog out in the day. And for the last sort of 10 years, he's 10 now, walking with the dog. Most days, sometimes the weather's really, really terrible. We won't go out, but it's on the most part unplugged, just walking. And it's really strange. I think a lot and it drives me mad sometimes.

Daniel Hill (51:37.152)

I most high performance day experience.

Andy Graham (51:38.634)

and I used to struggle with sleep but when I walk I just stop thinking or I might think but it's almost absentmindedly and it's okay and it's enjoyable and it's there's no stress or pressure and I get a similar thing when I'm exercising I just stop thinking about everything which is one of the reasons why it's so important to me but walking in particularly in the woods like there's something there's actually science about it you probably know but the walk in the woods amongst woodland is good for you amongst trees and I just find it almost sedative like the effect that it has and it's a big part of my daily habit and my structure.

Daniel Hill (52:10.19)

I'm reading the Dao De Ching at the minute and it's talking about we're chasing this whatever you want to be a billionaire, multimillionaire, whatever. You just move million miles an hour in this direction and you don't even look out the window. And he just says about it, observe the one, this is like very spiritual and a bit like woo woo, but it's like just observe this, like the phenomenon that is nature. You look at a plant or a flower where you just sit in the garden and previously I might be on my phone and not even take notice. Now I don't have my phone on and I'll sit in the garden having a cup of tea and I'll look around and can hear the birds and you can see all this stuff. You're just like, wow, actually, that is phenomenal.

Andy Graham (52:45.23)

Can I tell you a quick story? After Gemma and I got married, we went off traveling around the world and we had an amazing time. One of the places we went to is Costa Rica. And I don't know if you've ever been. It's an incredible country. And depending on where you are in Costa Rica, could be quite different, but we were over, we spent some time, one part of our trip over on the Caribbean side of Costa Rica. And we stayed in a riverboat community.

So you literally can't drive there, there are no roads at all, you fly in and then you get a riverboat up an hour, two hours, whatever it is, to this riverboat community. And they quite literally live in the Costa Rican jungle. And we spend a week, 10 days, whatever it was, just every single day going down the rivers into the jungle. And it's funny because Gemma and I were just speaking about this the other day and we can't wait to take Isla and maybe any other children that we have one day, but it is the most peaceful but also inspirational sort of place that I've ever been. 

I remember we would get up at five and before breakfast we'd go down the river and there were all these tributaries and little offshoots through the jungle and it is deadly silent but for the noise of just nature and it is the most spectacular thing. I can't, it's serene and I'll never ever forget it and it's one of those things that's kind of completely in some way shaped and changed the way that I think and feel about everything, but it's an extreme example of my daily walks, but time and nature, certainly for me, I just think it's one of the most important things to be, and actually some of my markers to success, like if I think about, I will periodically check in on quarterly, whatever it is basis, but I'll look at what am I doing and what am I not doing? And if I'm not getting my daily walks, these little things in, I'm failing. If I'm getting them in and I'm getting my exercise, like I'm hitting a lot of like what I consider a successful day or successful month or quarter to be. But yeah, an extreme example, but really special memory. And if you get the chance, I highly recommend you go and do that.

Daniel Hill (54:39.47)

Yeah, I can imagine. I lived on a narrowboat for a while and it was, I would still be there today. I've just bought a little lodge on the river and I would still be on my narrowboat now if I had a choice. So once finished, choose a life changer or a game changer and then we'll call it a day. So one each, a highest value one that springs to mind. Cool, go for it. This is a

Andy Graham (54:54.126)

Okay, I'm gonna go with the life changer. An unusual one, but I'm gonna circle back to the story I told you earlier about the diagnosis that I got. Life sort of presents itself like the most obtuse sort of challenges that I think we can imagine and you don't really realize it can happen to you until it happens. But I listened to your podcast earlier, Dan, about your dad and I know you've talked about your dad passing away, but these sorts of life moments, they're terrible when they happen but there's so much good stuff that can come from them and they can completely change the trajectory. 

My experience absolutely did that for me. It was a complete life changer. It was a complete game changer and I embraced it. And I remember having conversations about risk, but that conversation was about, you have this treatment, these are your odds. You don't have this treatment, these are your odds. And I chose not to go with one of the recommendations and kind of ground the risk that I might have problems in the future. And it's paid off touch wood so far, but I think that sometimes the most difficult things in life and in business can turn out to be some of the greatest gifts and it's a really strange thing to say and it's really tough when you're in the moment but now I'm a bit older it's something that I really I understand more and I think for anyone that finds themselves in those sorts of situations it's going to be difficult it's going to be tough but it won't always be and there'll be some really good stuff that ultimately comes out from it.

Daniel Hill (56:13.998)

Yeah, I agree. I mean, sometimes you need that extreme to sort of force your hand and turn the page if you like. So yeah, I think that's definitely a good one. So if you chose life changer, I'll go for game changer. I would say, on Providence Planet we teach a blueprint called Think Big and the definition that we're teaching on Thursday and the definition of Think Big is to basically push you outside your comfort zone. So I did this when I wanted to live on the narrowboat. I did this when I bought the haul. I did it when I bought the Rolls Royce. I did it with like all these big things that in my head, I'd never even thought it was possible. 

And then you actually think big and think of it. And the definition is that it's insight, but it's out of reach. This should be the game changer for people. It's think about something that's insight, which means you've seen someone else do it. So it's physically possible to own a Rolls Royce, fly private, live in a hall, whatever you want. But then it's out of reach because the way you currently think is not possible. And then when you choose what it is and then work it backwards, what it allows you to do to is realize actually it's so much closer than you think. 

And rather than have that glass ceiling of whatever, how much you work, how much you don't work, where you live, whatever you want, it enables you to then push yourself to the next level. And it's because of that, that I have a few of the things that I've had. Adam, who runs a property entrepreneur, lives in Bali on a desert island. Because one day he thought, well, what happens if I did just want to live on a desert island? And now he lives on a desert island. So yeah, I would say think big, insight and out of reach.

Andy Graham, thank you for joining us. Six rounds. Thanks, Dan.

Andy Graham (57:46.286)

That's it for today's episode guys. Thank you for tuning in. Big thank you to Dan for inviting me on the show. I really enjoyed getting to know Dan a little bit better. I enjoyed discussing the topics that we covered. Dan is a fascinating character and he is clearly very, very, very successful. Now, if you're just beginning your HMO journey, head straight to theHMOroadmap.co.uk right now. Go and check it out and get yourself inside the platform and take advantage of everything that we have got to offer. It'll absolutely blow you away and it really is the very best place to start, but if you're a little bit further along in the journey, perhaps you've got a couple of projects under your belt already. 

Now, Dan and I discussed this today. One of the best ways to really accelerate your results is to find someone to guide you through it. Get yourself a mentor or a coach. Now, if you head to the show notes right now, you'll find a link and that link is to a video that'll tell you a little bit more about what working with me on my mentorship program is like. It's a very bespoke program. It's very much tailored to you and your objectives and your goals and your aspirations, the resources you have and the resources that you don't have. 

So it's not a big group program at all. It's very, very, very much personalized to you, but you can find out a little bit more about my program. And if you want to have a chat with me, you can book yourself a free strategy call. We can have a discussion about what's going on in your business, where you want to get to your aspirations, what's holding you back. And if you want to join my program, we can discuss that as well. So just head to the show notes now, find that link and you can get yourself a free strategy call booked in. 

That's it though guys, thank you again for tuning in today and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week so please join me then for another instalment of the HMO Podcast.