I Reviewed 1,000 Plus HMO Deals - Here’s What I've Learned

Ever wondered why a deal that looks great on paper still ends up underperforming?

After reviewing over a thousand HMO deals, I can tell you - it’s rarely bad luck. It’s the same mistakes showing up again and again.

In this episode, I break down exactly where investors are going wrong. Not with complex, unpredictable issues but with the fundamentals. The assumptions, the numbers, and the gap between what we think will happen and what actually does.

🎯 What You’ll Learn

 • Why most HMO deals fail
 • How underestimating refurbishment costs can quietly destroy your returns
 • The truth about valuation methodology
 • Why timelines are almost always longer than you expect
 • How small inaccuracies compound and drag down your deal performance
 • How to close the gap between spreadsheet performance and real-world results

If you want to avoid expensive mistakes, tighten up your deal analysis, and invest with real confidence, this episode will show you exactly how to do it.

Download your copy of The HMO Investors Guide to The Renters’ Rights Act here: https://thehmoroadmap.co.uk/

💻 Resources & Mentions

• Join my Accelerator Programme: If you’d like my direct input on your current or next project, you can watch this video or book a complimentary strategy call with me here.
• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• The HMO Community: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside our Free Facebook Group here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.686)

I've looked at a lot of HMO deals over the years. Obviously, many of these have been for myself on my own investing journey. Many of them have been for my agency, which I started, built up and then later sold. And many of them have been for my clients or members of our community that value a second opinion on whatever it is that they're buying. And I've seen deals of all sorts of shapes and sizes all over the country, everything you can possibly imagine. And when you've reviewed the volume of deals that I have, you start to see patterns. And what I have found is that, It's very rarely something unique or complex that breaks a deal. In fact, in most cases, no matter what it is or where it is, people are making the same mistakes again and again and again. And it's these mistakes that are breaking their deals. Well, in today's episode, I'm going to break down what those mistakes are so that you don't make them. Let's get into it.

Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future. 

We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you, that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:44.047)

Okay, welcome back. Today I want to talk to you about some of the key things that I've learned from reviewing over a thousand HMO deals. Now one thing really stands out to me. Most of the deals that I've been brought that I've reviewed for people, they stack on paper when I'm looking at the spreadsheet, when I'm looking at the appraisal, the evaluation. The numbers look good, the yields work, the cash looks really strong, the refinance all looks achievable. But when I dig a little bit deeper, there are some issues and those issues tend to show up a little bit later. 

Now what I've seen time and time again is that the numbers on the spreadsheet, on the evaluation, on the appraisal, they're of course built on assumptions but in some cases they just don't hold up in the real world. And it's that gap, that is the mistake and that is where deals actually fall down. It's not black swan events, it's not events that come from the left field that are shocking and super surprising. Most deals fail because things that we should have assumed might happen do happen and we didn't account for them correctly at the front end of the deal in our appraisal. 

So that is exactly what we're going to be talking about in today's episode. I'm going to share with you some of the patterns of mistakes that I have seen having reviewed over a thousand HMO deals so that you can spot these before you make the very same mistakes.

The good news is this stuff is really easy to identify and to correct and to get right. But it's also really easy to get wrong, especially if you don't have the experience. And the point at which people learn some of these mistakes is far, far, far too late because of course by then we've already bought the deal. We've spent money on refurbishing it and the problems tend to arise at some point between starting the project and finishing it and getting it refinanced. 

It's very difficult to correct these problems if you haven't accounted for them at the earliest stage. So I've got a number of things, these key lessons, these learnings that I want to share with you today and we're going to walk through them one by one. I want to kick things off today by talking about first and foremost what the appraisal is and why it is so important. Now, I know a lot of our regular listeners will be really familiar and experienced investors with the idea of appraising deals.

Andy Graham (05:04.028)

And putting them into some sort of an evaluation tool. inside the HMO roadmap, you can use the deal stacker, but you can use a spreadsheet. There's lots of different tools that you can use to evaluate HMO deals. But essentially what we're doing is we're putting the numbers, purchase price, and all of our costs and all of the various sort of financial elements into some sort of a tool. And then we're making some assumptions on, of course, what we are actually going to spend on the property, how long it might take to do the refurbishment, what the rents are likely to be, the occupancy, what the interest rates on the new mortgage is going to be, what the new valuation is going to be, all of these things, they're assumptions. They are, in all honesty, a best guess. And when you put all of that together, that information goes into the spreadsheet or into the tool like the DealStacker, and out of it comes a breakdown of performance. And that performance is typically speaking what we base our decisions on.

It tells us what the property is going to be worth to us, how much money we're going to make on it. So it carries a huge amount of weight and a lot of people spend very little time doing this actually. And one of the things that really surprises me is how many people overlook the importance of being able to validate the information that goes into the spreadsheet or into the tool. I like this saying, but ultimately if bullshit goes in, then bullshit will be coming out, if you're not putting the right information into your appraisal and analysis tool, the information that comes out of it won't be correct. And what happens through that process, through that mechanism is the information that might be a little bit off, the impact of that gets multiplied as it gets washed through the system and different variables clash with one another. And by the time that deal washes through, all of these things have sort of played their role a little bit. 

Some of them have been a little bit off and they start to have a bearing on other elements of the deal and very quickly you can be quite some way out from where you want it to be. That might be in terms of the cash that you're making on the deal. It might be the amount of money that comes back out and gets recycled. That might affect your ability to repay an investor. Really, really, really significant and important things. So it is one of the most important exercises. And what I say to all of my clients is until you are sitting down in front of me,

Andy Graham (07:28.349)

telling me how good the deal looks and you're sort of almost doing it with your eyes closed effectively, there's work to be done. If you're asking me whether you think this looks right or that looks right, whether we've overcooked that or undercooked that, we're not the expert that we need to be. I pour over the data that I can then use to put into my spreadsheet exercises because it gives me the confidence to know that the decision that I'm going to make based on this appraisal exercise is really well informed. I'm going to mitigate the risks as far as I possibly can. I can't remove them. That's not the objective here. But the point is we're trying to close the gap between what we think it will be like and what it will actually turn out like in terms of the deal's performance. 

So we're putting lots of information into a spreadsheet and I'm not going to walk through exactly how to do an appraisal today. That's not what this exercise is about. You can go and watch videos about that inside the HMO roadmap. I've done advanced deal analysis, master classes as well. But what I am going to do is pick up on where I see most people making mistakes. So this is the sort of pattern of mistake that I'm seeing again and again and again and again. 

The first one, and it is massive, is underestimating the refurbishment costs. This is a really common problem, especially with investors who are just less experienced and that's understandable if you haven't done a HMO project or done many of them it's very difficult to know what you really do need to spend your money on. The sorts of problems that you will typically have the things that you might have overlooked that you will absolutely need to consider and don't really wash out until you're underway on the project. And it can be difficult to price things accurately at the outset and even for an experienced investor like me.

I think I can get within about 5% of a pretty big budget, a sort of a budget up to about a million and a half now. But 5% off a million and a half is quite a big swing, isn't it? And that's sort of nearly 20 years of experience. So I'm still very much aware that I don't get this right every time. So if you feel the same, that is perfectly fine. You shouldn't feel 100 % confident on what this figure is going to be, but you have to

Andy Graham (09:50.687)

put a sensible contingency in for what it might be. Now, when we're buying a property, one of the crazy things is that we'll look at it online, we'll probably go and view it once and then we'll put an offer in and we will buy based on what was probably a 15, 20 minute viewing, unless it will literally spend hundreds of thousands of pounds based on viewing a property for 15 minutes. We'll spend more time in the supermarket. We'll spend more time buying a car, which costs a fraction of the price of a property, but that is the norm. Okay. 

Now, what that does mean is that there's only so much information that we can extract from that viewing and from the process to try and establish what it's going to cost us to do a refurbishment and also how long it's going to take, but we're going to come onto that shortly. So at the outset, we need to be very, very careful. And of course we do need to make a pretty good guess because if we viewed something, we're obviously inclined to sort of get our numbers together so that we can put an offer to the seller so that we can try and get the property agreed. 

Now through the process of conveyancing and later on, we can try and narrow things down a little bit. We'll try and get more confident on what some of these figures are. But upfront, before you own the project, it's very difficult to get builders to come in and cost things and do all of that stuff accurately. If you've got to contact a builder that you've worked with regularly, he might be happy.

Or she might be happy to come to the viewing with you and have a look at your ideas. But if you haven't got the experience of working with somebody before, if you're investing somewhere new, then you might not have that. And you are literally going to be making the best guess that you can. Now, I'm not going to talk you through how to make that guess as well as you possibly can. It's quite a complicated topic, understanding refurbishments. But I just want to point out that this is where most people are under cooking things. They're not factoring in enough on their refurb costs. And of course then what happens is they come out of the project having spent more money on the development and then that impacts the financial performance. And it's things like the scope of works, exactly how much needs to be done to get to the spec that they need. It's misunderstanding how much it costs to achieve a certain spec. It's sometimes

Andy Graham (12:13.911)

The fact that you're overlooking compliance and things that are involved in that, might be building control and the costs of that and professional fees. might be that you need a paneled fire alarm system and not just simply a mainswired interlinked fire system. The price is very different. I know somebody recently who was required to get an AOV in one of their HMOs. That's essentially an event that opens automatically in the event of smoke and that's about 7,000 ish quid. 

There's a lot of stuff that you might need that you might not know you need. So depending on the degree of confidence that you have, depending on who you've got in your power team, depending on how much time you've got to put all of this stuff together, I would recommend that you recognize that this is probably an area where you are likely to get something wrong. It carries a very big risk and you want to do everything that you possibly can to try and reduce that risk.

Make sure that you understand refurbishments, what's involved, pour into the detail, figure exactly what you are likely to do with the floor plan as best as possible. It is all the best guess until you get a bit further down the line and you've got measured drawings and you've got tender cost back from builders. One of the, honestly, the best possible ways you can mitigate this risk is to work with somebody who has done lots of projects like this. 

So somebody, a mentor, coach, somebody who can look at this for you and has that experience of doing lots of deals and can point out whether or not you're 5, 10, 15, 20 % out. I regularly sit down and look at deals that my clients will bring to me and can find many tens of thousands of pounds that they are either out, maybe undercooking or in some cases actually overcooking. They're proposing to spend more than it really needs. And that's especially apparent when they're proposing to do works to create new spaces, for example, lofts and extensions and things like that. 

So that's the first big one. This is where most people, and if you imagine there was sort of a spectrum of experience, certainly the people with less experience, it's where most people make a mistake and it can be quite an expensive mistake. So make sure that you recognize the risk and make sure you're doing everything you can to reduce that risk.

Andy Graham (14:35.543)

Let's talk then about valuation methodology. So one of the big pieces of appraising HMO deals is what we think the project is going to be worth after we've spent lots of money on refurbishing it. Of course, that for many of us will determine how much money we can recycle back out of the deal, what we can pay to our bridge or development lender or our private investor. And it might have a bearing on how much money we have available back in our own bank account to move on and continue reinvesting. 

So understandably, it's one of the most important things for a lot of investors. Now, understanding valuation methodology is a tricky subject. It's a bit of an art more so than a science and it's a bit of a dark art as well. Inside the HMO roadmap, there are a number of video lessons and master classes from myself and Ellie our mortgage broker to help you understand exactly how to bottom out valuation methodology, especially from a commercial perspective. 

This is where you can utilize the commercialization of a HMO to extract more value back out of the property. But it is tricky to do. Now what you have to be really careful of when you're appraising deals, and this is the mistake that I have seen, is not to be too optimistic. If there is a lack of understanding, what we tend to do, because it's human nature, is we use our natural bias and we're a bit optimistic on what that figure looks like. We make the spreadsheet work by adjusting this figure to suit. And often I'll say to people, where have you got that figure from? Where have you got that revaluation figure from? Not even questioning that it might be wrong, but where have you got it from? And on many, many, many occasions, the answer I will get with, I don't really know. I just thought it'd be worth about that. And that is a sure fire way to get this wrong to break the deal. OK. Because if you come up short on that you are going to pay very very very heavily. 

So understanding how HMOs are actually valued is an essential skill if you want to be a professional HMO investor. You have to make sure that there's no misalignment with the lender's criteria which means you have to have a pretty good understanding about your lender. So there's nuance here and I'm trying not to overly complicate this but

Andy Graham (16:55.735)

the way that different banks and different values who work for different banks value HMOs is a little bit different. This is why specialist lenders whilst they are typically more expensive can help you build a more predictable outcome than let's say your very vanilla lenders who might have cheaper rates but don't typically sort of get the concept of commercial valuations. They're just very much looking at brick and mortar value and lending against that. Neither is wrong here. You can use either whatever suits you, whatever you need, but you have to make sure that there isn't a misalignment there as well. So you need to have a pretty good understanding of the lender you're likely to go with, how that lender typically values assets, and then build your appraisal in part on that basis. A good mortgage broker like Ellie, our broker at the HMO roadmap will absolutely be able to at the front end of your deal.

Make sure that you are getting these sorts of figures right. What I have found is that certainly the more inexperienced investors then make the mistake of thinking that they can piece all of this together without any data behind it, without the experience of people like myself or Ellie to help them. And they can be many tens, if not far more thousands of pounds out. And that's quite a concern. Valuations cannot be based on opinions.

It has to be based on a methodology and data where possible examples of other valuations. Again, if you're an experienced investor and you've done other deals, you're likely to have had one of those refinanced. If you've had a good revaluation, you can use the methodology in that valuation. You can apply it to your next deal. You can be quite predictable in a way. You might use the same lender and hopefully the same valuer.

And you can see how it does get easier, but at the start, if you haven't got that experience, then it can be quite tricky. So again, I'm not going to go into valuation methodology in detail today. It's a topic in itself and we can spend hours discussing it. There's lots of information in the HMO roadmap that you can go and absorb. But what I want to point out is that this is what most people again, make a mistake on and that filters through to the backend of their deal.

Andy Graham (19:15.605)

And they're disappointed when the valuer comes back with a soft evaluation and they end up in a bit of a pickle because perhaps they can't pay somebody back or they can't clear an investor out of a deal or they don't have enough money to go again and invest in the next project. So be really aware of how important this is and how easy it is to get it wrong. Okay. The next one then huge one. And this is more of an invisible one. I think it's timelines, timelines of pretty much everything when it comes to property are usually misunderstood and undercooked, if I'm honest. So just buying a deal. Okay. This might not cost you much, but it can be frustrating. The expectation as to how long it might take between putting an offer in and actually completing, it's usually a little bit longer. But after that, getting drawings and surveys together for the proposed works that you might want to do.

Once you've got them agreed, perhaps going into planning, preparing a planning application, going through planning, getting a decision from planning, maybe getting pulled into committee. All of that stuff takes a lot of time and it can often take much longer than you think, than people think. Refurbishments. A lot of people do make the mistake of undercooking how long it might take to deliver a project. 

Investors and builders are typically very optimistic, I find, when it comes to how long it will take to do a refurbishment or a small development. And it's very easy to be sort of 30, 40, 50% over. Now, straight away, there's going to be additional costs of interest in that. So figure out what it's costing every single month to have the borrowing that you've got and add several months on because you're likely to need it. Be careful though, that you don't put lending in place. And this is one of the bigger mistakes I see people make as a consequence of making the mistake of undercooking timelines, they might arrange, for example, a private loan and they do it on, let's say a nine month term. And actually if there's a penalty for not repaying at month nine, then not only is month 9, 10, 11 and onwards, are they paying additional interest on, but there might be a penalty clause. And that sometimes depending on the lender, depending on the loan agreement, that can be quite expensive.

Andy Graham (21:34.649)

And so all of that gets washed into the deal and then that's where deals start to get dragged down from a performance perspective. So it's really important to make sure that you've got sensible contingencies in for all of your timelines. Another one that people often underestimate is how long it will take to refinance a project at the point of practical completion. When you've got your certificates handed over, when the project and the refurbishment is actually done, how long does it take you to get it refinanced and have money back in your bank and pay off your development finance or your private lender. 

Usually, in my experience, you probably need to factor in about three months for that. In some cases, it will take longer. In some cases, it might be a little bit later. But I often see people completely disregarding that entirely. And they just factor in maybe six or nine months for their refurbishment and forget entirely about the time that they will need to get from their dev finance onto their term finance.

All of these things, and you can see how if you make a mistake across more than one of these areas, very quickly these timelines can sort of be extended and get very, very expensive. So be really, really careful. Again, lot of this does come with experience, knowing, being more confident about how long things will take and the sorts of problems that you might find that could delay things. But it's important that you are aware of them and you're building that contingency into your deal.

Build it in that way you won't be surprised when things do potentially take a little bit longer. And if you're appraising with all of this in mind, the point going back to the purpose of today's episode is to make sure that you don't make these mistakes when you're putting your evaluations together. And it's when we're evaluating, we're determining what we're going to actually pay for the property. So I guess what I'm saying is if we factor in a bit more pessimistically, some delays.

And let's say those delays we think are going to cost an extra 10 or 15 thousand pounds. And maybe we factor in a slightly softer valuation, again, another 10 or 15 thousand pounds. There's 30 thousand pounds straight away there that we need to consider. Now, if you've got a performance criteria that you want to see in your deal, then you can't really change how long it's likely to take to do your refurb or what it's likely to cost to do it. But what you can change is how much you pay for the property.

Andy Graham (23:56.613)

And that's exactly how you control this. Okay. So you have to be really careful. And that is precisely why we do all of this stuff. And we try and make sure that the information going into the spreadsheet is as accurate as possible because that is what is informing your decision to buy the property and at the price you buy it. I hope that makes sense. Okay. So unrealistic timeframes then, and we've talked about finance costs. We've not yet talked about delayed income. So if all of this stuff takes a little bit longer.

Just remember that that's all time that you haven't got tenants who are paying you rent and you've not got that cash coming in. And one of the other things is that when you are under pressure, especially financial pressure, time pressure, making decisions is very stressful and it's not enjoyable. So whilst this bit may not impact your performance metrics directly, what you see on the spreadsheet, what you ultimately see come into your bank account.

It isn't how we want to run our projects. We shouldn't be doing it. We should be making sure that we're trying to do things in a non-stressful environment. We're going to make better decisions when that is the case. So just be mindful of that. Now, when it comes to appraisals, we can make mistakes on pretty much every element of the appraisal, all of the information going into it. But today's episode was about the key mistakes, the most common mistakes I see people making. And these are also inadvertently the most expensive mistakes that people make. 

So let me just recap. First and foremost, was underestimating refurbishment costs. Secondly, it was misunderstanding valuation methodology. And then finally, it was setting unrealistic timeframes on how long it would take or will take to get things done in a project. So they're the key things that people typically make mistakes on. But I want to give you a bit more insight here because it is very rare that one of these things happens in isolation to drag the performance of a deal down. 

In my experience, having seen thousands of deals, it is almost always a combination of small inaccuracies, certainly in these three areas, but it can be other areas of the spreadsheets as well, that drag the deal down. I gave you an example, but five or 10,000 pounds here, five or 10,000 pounds here, 10 or 20,000 pounds here.

Andy Graham (26:23.437)

Very quickly that sixty thousand quid that you thought you were getting back out of the deal is staying in. That might be the money that you need to invest into the next project. That might be sixty thousand pounds that you owe to a private investor or the bank. You have to think very very very carefully about making sure that all of this information is tied together and it is accurate. And you need to make sure that for all of these things, that you're measuring it against the degree of experience and confidence that you have. And you have to be pretty honest about this. Putting appraisals together and buying based on those appraisals, that is not a time to be over optimistic and over confident. You should be cautious and it makes far more sense to just pay for a bit of time and a bit of experience for somebody who knows what they're looking at and who has done this many, many times to give you their opinion. 

The cost of that could be saved many, many, many, many times over by just getting the right sort of advice and help sort of pick up on these sorts of things. But again, be mindful that if you try and fix these problems later down the line, it can be very difficult. Trying to fix a soft valuation is one of the most challenging things. It's almost always impossible to challenge valuation with the same lender.

Usually you're gonna have to go to another lender and another valuer. Well, that in itself takes months and you may still not even get the valuation that you want. In fact, I know people who have done that and got an even worse valuation. So it isn't always predictable, but you just need to make sure that you're making the best guess possible. You have to be putting sensible assumptions in place. You have to be basing this on data and on experience. And the more of that you've got, the more likely you are to come out on the spreadsheet where you think you will do when you appraise it at the front end. 

But if any of these are slightly off and they start to interact with one another, the impact, the detrimental impact can absolutely compound and it can happen very, very quickly. And it's like a car crash sort of just unfolding in slow motion and it's really not nice. And for a lot of people, it'll put them off investing altogether and make it very difficult for them to continue investing. So the point here is to try and

Andy Graham (28:42.895)

close the gap between that paper performance and that real world performance. So what should you do next? Okay, well first and foremost, you need to make sure that the information going into your spreadsheet is accurate. Okay, so go and spend some time making sure that you really do thoroughly understand the brick and mortar data, what the achievable rents are in the location that you're investing in. Get clued up on what refurbishments cost, what is the going rate for construction work, for plumbing and heating and things like that. Get clued into valuation methodology. Go and watch the videos inside the HMO roadmap. Make sure you've got the right broker, somebody like Ellie, on your side working for you and with you to help close the gap. Be realistic about timelines and buffers. Again, if you don't quite know how long these things will take, ask the right people and just build that experience into your appraisals. And at the end of the day, it'll serve you to be a little bit more conservative with your assumptions. Please, please, please don't be overly optimistic because it is the most expensive mistake you could make. 

That is about it for today's episode guys. I really do hope this has been helpful. I'm sure it will be. And look, if there's one thing to take away from today's episode, it isn't that deals don't usually work. It's just that they often don't perform the way that we expect them to because we're not putting the information into the spreadsheet in the right way.

More often than not, it just boils down to the input, the assumptions, the costs, the timelines, all of the data behind it. So before you focus on doing more deals and scaling up and pushing forward, and I know that that's the exciting stuff and we see the pound signs and that's where we want to go with things. Just spend more time on making sure you are accurately appraising and analyzing and evaluating your deals and the locations and putting the right offers forward you're buying at the right price with all of this stuff and more that we've discussed today because the better your inputs are quite frankly the better the decisions that you can make will be and ultimately the better the outcomes you will get from your deals. 

That's it for today's episode then guys don't forget that if you want to discuss anything that I've talked about in today's episode then come on over to the HMO community that's our free group on Facebook is a great place.

Andy Graham (31:03.899)

to ask questions about this sort of stuff. And I can give you my advice and feedback. You can share ideas with the community and get their feedback as well. If you want to go and get stuck into some of the video lessons that I've mentioned today, head on over to thehmoroadmap.co.uk. Honestly, we've got master classes on advanced deal appraisals, on commercial valuations, on refurbishments, on pretty much everything you could possibly need to be a better HMO investor. If you recognize there's a gap and you need to know more, you need to lift your experience and knowledge base up, then it's an absolute no brainer because it'll cost you less than the price of a cup of coffee every single day. 

If you really want to step things up a notch and you want to work with me directly, then just head to the show notes. There's a link there. You can watch a video and you can find out a little bit more about what that looks like. And if you like, you can book a free strategy call with me. I'm happy to have a chat with you, see what's going on and see whether or not I might be able to help you. That's it guys. Good luck stacking all your deals. Don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO podcast.