How To Future Proof Your HMO With Architects Andrew & Mary

The HMO market can feel increasingly uncertain when you’re in the middle of it. Regulation is tightening, standards are rising, tenants have more power, and the margin for error is getting smaller. It’s no longer enough to create a property that works on day one - landlords need HMOs that can stand up to scrutiny, perform over the long term, and remain profitable for years to come.

In this episode, I sit down with our partner architects, Andrew and Mary, to talk about what it really means to future-proof your HMOs.

This isn’t just a conversation about design trends or cosmetic upgrades - it’s a practical look at the technical details that many investors overlook, from insulation, heating, ventilation, damp and mould prevention, to compliance, documentation, and defensibility when things go wrong.

🎯 What You’ll Learn

• Why future-proofing your HMO matters more than ever in today’s regulatory environment
• How better planning, drawings, and documentation can protect you from disputes and compliance issues
• What landlords should be thinking about when it comes to insulation, energy efficiency, and heating systems
• How ventilation strategies can help reduce damp, mould, and long-term maintenance problems
• Why thoughtful design, adaptable spaces, and better storage can improve tenant satisfaction and encourage longer stays

If you’re refurbishing, converting, or reviewing an existing HMO, this episode will help you think more strategically about how to protect your investment and build assets that work not just today, but 5, 10, or 20 years from now.

Contact Andrew and Mary here, if you’re interested in discussing your HMO design and architectural needs here.

💻Resources & Mentions

• Join Andy’s Accelerator Programme: If you’d like my direct input on your current or next project, you can book a complimentary strategy call with me here.
• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• Facebook Community: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside The HMO Community here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe and drop a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify - it helps more investors find the show!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy, and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio, and what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment, and I've managed thousands of tenants, join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice. And everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now. 

[00:00:40] Andy Graham: Today, I'm joined by Andrew and Mary, who are of course our partner architects, and I wanna have a conversation about future proofing our HMOs. Look, it's no secret that the direction of travel is changing on us. More regulation, higher standards. Potentially more challenges and more difficulties with tenants.

[00:00:57] Andy Graham: Never has it been more important to design better HMOs, especially if we want to make them work over the long term. 5, 10, 15, 20 years. So today we're gonna talk about some of the technical stuff that you are probably overlooking when it comes to designing your HMOs. Please sit back, relax. And enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

[00:01:22] Andy Graham: Hey guys, it's Andy here. We are gonna be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I wanna tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you are serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:01:39] Andy Graham: Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals, and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:01:54] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:02:09] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now, and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:02:33] Andy Graham: Hi guys. Thanks for coming back onto the podcast. 

Andrew: Thanks for having us Andy. 

Andy Graham: Two very familiar faces. Obviously our community and partner architects. Great to have you guys back. I wanna have a conversation about future proofing today. I wanna talk about in the context of all of the regulatory changes, all these additional pressures.

[00:02:52] Andy Graham: I think the big squeeze on private landlords, and let's be frank, the fact that tenants have just got. More of that power. They've got more rights, more talk about how we can operate our HMOs, how we can plan better from the very initial stages to make sure that we are future proofing our assets and our investments as well as possible.

[00:03:14] Andy Graham: I wanted to have this conversation with you guys from a very technical perspective as well, so. Let's start today by just talking about what your opinions are about some of the potential challenges in, I suppose, the fabric of our houses that we might need to start thinking a lot more about given the new legislation.

[00:03:33] Andy Graham: I mean, I know that you guys are doing a lot of projects for our community, but it'd be great to hear what your thoughts are in terms of the sort of things that we need to start paying more attention to right now. 

Andrew: Yeah, definitely. I think we're going off. As everyone knows, there's a lot of legislation hoops to jump through already with planning, building legs.

[00:03:52] Licensing, I amenity standards. But as we know with the renters, right, that coming in, there's gonna always be another layer of that on top. Renters are gonna have more powers to challenge things. Um, HMO officers are gonna have more ability to request changes, et cetera. We've seen this with a friend recently who's had a HMO inspector come in and put a damp meter on every property of the wall and where the, where the meter reading deemed to be too high, they're having to do remedial, damp works to the property.

[00:04:21] So. There's gonna be, yeah. More red tape to jump through. And I think it's therefore making it even more imperative that a lot of people are making incredible products and spending a lot of money on their refurbs, and you wanna make sure that you're getting it right from the outset at the beginning to kind of, as we said, future proof properties further down the line.

[00:04:39] Andy Graham: Mm. I wanna add a bit of context from personal experience to this as well, because I think what we're talking about really is, well, two things. First of all, we need to perhaps better consider any work that we are doing to our properties now in terms of the fabric of the design, ventilation, heating solutions, that sort of stuff.

[00:04:58] Andy Graham: But I also think there's an additional piece that we need to think about very seriously, which is defensibility. And I think that that's one thing that over the years a lot of landlords have paid very little attention to. And just from personal experience, I'm gonna just share a recent story. I've got a block of flats and in this particular block of flats, I had a particular lady who turned out to be quite a difficult tenant.

[00:05:22] Andy Graham: Anyway, we went through the rigmarole of removing her, not before. She managed to accrue quite substantial arrears. Many, many, many thousands of pounds, and as part of her, I suppose, best effort to try and deflect the pressure from us to pay the rent or come up with some sort of payment plan, this particular tenant tried to use everything that she could possibly think of to justify offsetting her rent and justify that she was due some sort of compensation back and it was in the form of damp mold disrepair.

[00:05:55] Andy Graham: Ventilation, just everything, and it came in two different forms. Well, it came in three different forms. First of all, it was through the agent just being quite difficult with us. Secondly, it came in the form of a housing standards complaint and then an inspection from the local authority. And it also came in the form of two.

[00:06:14] Andy Graham: Letters from solicitors, one of which was a personal injury claim for the consequences of mold and things like that. Now, I can tell you quite confidently that they didn't go anywhere at all. There's quite a sort of checkered history with this tenant, but it made our lives as landlords, very, very difficult.

[00:06:32] Andy Graham: And you can imagine the amount of time spent over months trying to not only just chase the rent, but then having to speak to my insurer, disclose that somebody's made a personal injury claim against us, and all of this stuff. And the response to the personal injury claim was sort of 30 or 40 pages long in its own right.

[00:06:48] Andy Graham: So I want everyone to pay attention right now because even if you haven't got this stuff wrong. I think there's a greater chance moving forward that tenants might try and pull these sorts of stunts on us just to frustrate matters. And at the end of the day, we are paying, we are footing the bill. I've got court letter here and this particular case is going to court and this lady will ultimately pay the rent that she's due, but there'll be a demand that we'll probably never get the money from and now 'cause the arrears are just so substantial.

[00:07:16] Andy Graham: So I think this is a really serious problem, and I think that, yes, first of all, making sure that we do the right things with the properties is incredibly important, but also making sure that that defensibility is very clear, very black and white. So talk to us guys about some of the technical things in areas of perhaps defensibility, compliance, paperwork, certificates that you think we should be paying better attention to from the outset.

[00:07:40] Andy Graham: And then if it's okay, I'd really like to actually get some technical examples from you, if it is ventilation, if it is heating, and I suppose we've also got minimum energy efficiency standards. Yes, it's been pushed back to 2030, but things like that are changing. So just give me your thoughts and ideas and opinions as to what these technical things we should be paying more attention to right now are.

[00:08:00] Mary: Absolutely. So it's really important, as Andrew said, all landlords or lots of great landlords, especially within this community, are trying to make fantastic products, and those products get lost if there isn't documentation to support those. And exactly what you said, Andy, if you didn't have the documentation to prove that your building was.

[00:08:24] Mary: Built very well and everything was in line and in check. Then they might have actually won the court case. So we like to believe that from the beginning, these documentations need to be put in place. So what we do, we tend to do with our clients is all the drawings, plans, building regs, details, et cetera that we create, have all the right specifications and integrated within it.

[00:08:49] Mary: So when they're creating a new external wall, or when they're reverbing an existing wall, do they need to put insulation in? What's the buildup of the current wall? What's going on in there and that documentation then enables you and your builder to work on site really well. Understand that everything's getting built really well.

[00:09:11] Mary: And then on site, it's a really good idea to actually document that as well, to have kind of proof that you've actually built things the way that you say you've built with all the kind of standards and everything in place. And I think just kind of going to the nitty gritty of things. We know that landlords through the air renters, right Bill will have to add their names to a scheme that's coming through.

[00:09:38] Mary: There's new legislations that have come in to say that any house with damp and mold, et cetera, needs to be investigated. So things like that, it's really important to have the right documentation to say that what you're doing and you're doing things well. So in terms of kind of lead detailing, a property, need to know how the walls are working, is there enough insulation in it?

[00:10:01] Mary: Like you say that EPC, new EPCs coming through as well. To understand whether, if you're creating ground floor spaces, basement spaces, have they been tanked correctly? How does that work? Is there a pump there, et cetera. So we can get into a whole, whole detail of everything and how it can work well. But at the end of the day, you are really making sure that those, these buildings are built robust.

[00:10:27] Mary: It doesn't just work for even one year, two year, there's actually a longevity within the product that you're creating. So you don't have to go back really often and have to do remedial works to ensure that the tenants are happy and you have tenants that are happy to reside there and they don't complain about due to environmental health.

[00:10:46] Andy Graham: Yeah, I think this is really good advice and I think it's also important to remember though, it's very exciting doing. Your first or second or third HMO project, but the hard work is actually in making that asset work. Yeah. For 10, 15, 20 years time. And I think that that's often overlooked by a lot of investors coming into the industry.

[00:11:08] Andy Graham: And it can be a huge burden if you don't think about this stuff from the outset. Now, I think, to be honest, we are talking here about. Maybe certainly planning better from the outset if we are going to do any works, but I think for a lot of people, and this is a narrative I've been pushing for a long, long time, but trying to cobble together.

[00:11:24] Andy Graham: Sketch drawings are overlaid on some right move floor plan with like some building control detail to give you your contract. That is not the right way to do it. Yes, it might be cheap. Yes, it might be faster, but you've gotta think about the long term. Long term. You've got very little defensibility. If you have some issues, there's a very good chance that you may not have done it.

[00:11:45] Andy Graham: Right. And from experience, and we've talked about this on the show several times. When it comes to things like m and e drawings and regularized drawings, if you've not got the proper spec with elevations of all your bits and pieces. It usually just comes back to bite you in the form of additional costs from contractors because there's this big gray area between what you thought and what they thought the expectations were on the project.

[00:12:07] Andy Graham: So I think that this is about following a better process from the outset. And yes, we're focusing on a couple of things today. Because of the new legislation coming in. I mean, Ahab's law, damp mold, condensation, we know that naturally speaking, this is a challenge in HMOs anyway. You've got a lot of people living, breathing, cooking, using water, boiling water, all of that stuff, and it does create a lot of.

[00:12:33] Andy Graham: Humidity in the environment. Yeah. And that can lead to problems. But I think that thinking about this from the outset is more important than ever. What I'd like to do is focus on these two elements and let's focus on energy efficiency or sort of heating solutions. And let's focus on ventilation. I mean, Andrew, I'll ping it over to you.

[00:12:53] Andy Graham: Where do you wanna start on these two enthralling topics? 

Andrew: Oh, what's going on? We're starting, um, we're starting in Chile. So you think just to elabor, remember what Barry's been saying as well, and as you are saying, Andy, as you know, we are working with building control, for example. You gotta have that drawing that says what you gonna do, how it's gonna be done, how it's gonna be built.

[00:13:13] Andrew: That's point number one. But then you also need to document about how it's being done on site. And that's due photographs might even need to be photographs of a tape measure to demonstrate the thickness of the insulation. And I think that needs to be going to another step further and not just being something that's done by building control, checking it.

[00:13:32] Andrew: You need to have that own record for yourselves. That's the level. Detail you going through the drawing and then the evidence on site. 'cause once that wall's plastered, painted, who knows what color plasterboard has been used underneath there? If it's F for fire rating, what whatnot, who knows what insulation in that wall, what thickness is it?

[00:13:49] Andrew: It is, et cetera. Something that does fall between the gaps a little bit with building control as well is thermal insulation of properties. Especially if you're doing something small like a small HMO where it might already be a C3 house, typical residential house, you're turning it to a C4 HMO, so something up to six beds, which doesn't really trigger a great deal in building control requirements like, like it does when you go into bigger sue generous things.

[00:14:18] Andrew: Sui Generous HMOs and so there can often be not be a need for you to upgrade thermal elements, et cetera, and it can come down to your personal choices as the, as the landlord, and we'd be kind of imploring you to be really considering that, as we've alluded to with the energy efficiency side of things. And EPCs, yes.

[00:14:36] Andrew: Again, like you said, it's been delayed. At some point that is going to come in. And that could be a potential large cost if a refurbishment works, if you're upgrading external walls with insulation, especially do it internally. And so I'd just be maybe considering it more from just an EPC point of view, but also as we've started to talk about the new renters, right?

[00:14:58] Andrew: Stuff coming in and cold houses. Damp is often caused through the lack of insulation on the walls because of the differential in temperature between the inside of the space and the outside of the space and the surface. And so thinking about things like that, whether you do external insulation and, and re-render the outside of the property, or you internally insulate inside the walls, I definitely think it's something that.

[00:15:22] Andrew: Should be getting considered as part of your refurb cost and not just seen as a unnecessary expense that maybe doesn't visually sell to the potential tenants.

[00:15:34] Mary: Yeah, agreed.

[00:15:34] Andy Graham: And I think just so our listeners who perhaps don't have the experience of doing this, the difference between something like internal and external insulation systems, actually they're both in practice, quite similar.

[00:15:44] Andy Graham: There's a frame that you might fit to the wall, either internally or externally fit the insulation to it, and then you've got your finished wall covering on a little bit easier to do inside because obviously you don't need scaffold and you've not got the elements to contend with. But obviously you do lose a an element of space inside.

[00:16:01] Andy Graham: I mean, Andrew, just, let's take a specific example. Let's sort of assume like an old-ish house. I think it would probably be fair to say that most people, the average buyer investor probably wouldn't really be that clued up in terms of. What the cavity might be made up of, what the sort of thermal composition of a particular house that they're buying might be.

[00:16:22] Andy Graham: So would you recommend that we should be starting with some sort of an energy sort of survey, getting a consultant's opinion and review of the house, because I've done this sort of stuff. Many times on larger schemes, but I'll be honest, I'm thinking about this stuff more now as you guys are, but I haven't, it's not something I really ever did with the HMOs.

[00:16:41] Andy Graham: But what's your opinion now? Is this something that we should all be doing, Thomas? Give us that baseline, that better understanding of what we're starting with? 

Andrew: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, there's varying levels of it, but I mean. Again, in residential properties, including HMOs, you're gonna need an EPC at the end of it.

[00:16:55] Andrew: And we always get our EPC assessor out to visit the property as soon as we start the works. We get them to do a model on the current property and what his current rating is and what it's would achieve if we were to do certain different aspects of work to it. So external wall insulation, loft in insulation, insulation underneath the suspended floor if there is one.

[00:17:17] Andrew: Increased new boilers, radiators with TRBs, et cetera, and understand the different things that can be done and how they will impact it all the way through to things like solar panels. So I think, I mean, that is a bare minimum. And I mean, the EPC assessment costs have gone up slightly 'cause of the way that it's changed, but that's a sub hundred pound activity and that can give you a whole host of information and knowledge about what's necessary.

[00:17:40] Andrew:  As you said, uh, the UK. A lot of our housing stock is a hundred years old and it's not designed for necessarily modern living, especially in the not designed for HMO living. All these people under one roof, like you talked about before, with creative moisture in the air and and whatnot. 70 bodies in one space.

[00:18:00] Andrew and Mary: Those are new found amazing stuff. Last year when we were having some issues with some students and dampened conversation in some of the properties about how much moisture, we just release your breathing every day, you know, oh, two cups of water a day. Yeah. Roo. And that's, where is that going with rock onto ventilation?

[00:18:19] Andrew:  Yeah. But where is that going? So yeah, I think it's, there's a bare minimum. It's important to do that and understand that these houses weren't designed. For this kind of living, they generally don't have any insulation in the walls. 'cause that wasn't the thing that you did a hundred years ago. And so that there's gonna need to be some form of improvement to fabric in order to help improve the liability of that property.

[00:18:41] Andy Graham: And this example that you gave an EPC assessor, for example, will they do a cavity inspection or is that something that we'd need to get maybe separately? Because you don't always know what's in the cavity, do you? 

Andrew: No, not at all. I mean, we're currently renovating our own home and I was amazed to find out we had insulation in the wall.

[00:18:57] Andrew: Like I wouldn't expect to be, I didn't not expect it to be there at all with the age of the property, so, so no, an EP test is not likely to do that. The best way to do it, it's just, yeah, be a builder and ask them to. Drill a hole through the wall, and then you can usually get a gauge of how thick he skin of the wall might be, if there's a cavity, what might be in the cavity, et cetera.  Yeah. But that's the best way to investigate that. 

[00:19:18] Andy Graham: and if you didn't have any, obviously there are solutions to filling cavities. If you've got some, then great. You've got something that at least you can start to base some calculations from, and you might need more raw or less internal external insulation if that's what you decide to do.

[00:19:34] Andy Graham: I think it's fair to say as well that this, the topic of energy and energy efficiency is. It's quite broad and it can get very, very complicated, very, very quickly, and, and I think that that's one of the things that a lot of landlords, investors can get overwhelmed with. I've seen this and experienced it myself, but you can very quickly.

[00:19:54] Andy Graham: There's all sorts of other elements that if you are converting to a new build. And the regulations are much stricter, so you become much more familiar with the sort of requirements, but it can be very, very complicated and your heating solution can all impact this as well. And the efficiency of that. And now we're talking more about things like pv, which is for solar, for anyone who doesn't know, plus or minus batteries, there's.

[00:20:17] Andy Graham: What they called the other different types of boilers and SOT pumps and that one. Yeah. So heat pumps. Exactly correct. Yeah. So there's lots of different stuff, but let's just put that aside for a minute and keep this simple. So obviously assessing the cavity, a sensible idea, getting an EPC assessor to come and give us an idea of where we're at now versus where we can get to is gonna be a really great guide on them.

[00:20:41] Andy Graham: What we need to provide you guys with in terms of for onward design, so. Let's assume that we've been able to get to an answer and you guys have been able to design something sensible into a scheme for us. Let's talk about ventilation because interestingly, a lot of what we are required to do as HMO operators, like have fire doors, have all these seals.

[00:21:02] Andy Graham: Actually, it's very, very bad for ventilation, so ironically it's a problem. Yes, lots of like en suites, more and more popular to have lots of en suites. Every bedroom has got an en suite these days. That's a lot of moisture and the opportunity for things to get trapped. So let's talk about ventilation systems for a second then.

[00:21:20] Andy Graham: And just for everybody listening, I would say that this is almost impossible to avoid entirely. Like in my experience, it's so hard and I'll fall on this sword, but it's, so much of it is still down to tenants and tenant behavior. And so the communication element, the education element is still absolutely massive.

[00:21:40] Andy Graham: But if you've been able to do that, you're able to demonstrate it. Plus, you've been able to demonstrate what you've installed, which is what we're talking about here today. That's a great and very defensible position. And if you do get a very difficult tenant that makes your your life hell, then you've got all this information and then evidence, but tells from a ventilation perspective.

[00:21:59] Andy Graham: Then guys, what are the sorts of problems that we're having? And most importantly, what solutions specifically for HMOs should we be thinking about more now?

[00:22:08] Mary: Yeah, no worries. As we all know, the UK is a very damp country, unfortunately. So as you mentioned, we need to consider different ventilation options.

[00:22:20] Andrew & Mary: And as we know, most of our tenants, they just send us a message saying, I've got mold in my room, my room's damp. And as much as we say you need to open your windows even though it's cold to let the air transfer, et cetera, that might not always work and not, might not always be the case. So it's kind of have different types of ventilation systems that you can use within the house to allow a domestic house to be well ventilated.

[00:22:49] Mary: One is triple vent, which people know quite well, and the other one is passive ventilation, and that's just kind of in bedrooms. So triple vent comes in most of double glazing, and it allows for air transfer to go to move through from outside and inside and stops condensation building in a cold area, which is the windows.

[00:23:13] Mary: So that's really important. So if you are not changing the windows or the double glazing in the house, in the rooms, it's really important to understand that those triple vents work really well and they work efficiently. The second thing is passive ventilation. And passive events. So a lot of basement rooms.

[00:23:33] Mary: So a lot of us, we convert houses into HMOs. There's basement areas or we convert the basement and those basements are particularly damp. And so one of the really good ideas to go in terms of ventilation in those areas where you get particularly, so the transfer of a cold air from the soil outside is quite dense to the warmth that's inside.

[00:24:00] Mary: So you get damp and mold build up quite quickly. So passive vents are very, very simple and you can install them on the outside wall of a basement or upper floors anywhere. That's particularly damp. They're like, so you car hold drill just like a vent that you would put into a bathroom, and they passively move air in and outta a room.

[00:24:24] Mary: And that's a really nice way to ventilate a space. We've got it in historical houses where you, you've got this mesh. But that mesh isn't as kind of high tech as what we can find now. Now you can find systems where the passive, the air kind of comes in and out, but it gets blocked so it doesn't actually get loads of cold air coming from outside.

[00:24:46] Mary: Actually monitors the air that comes in and out. This very simple technology that they've got integrated in them. So that's kind of bedroom venting.

[00:24:57] Andy Graham: One of the systems that I've used for years, sort of about 15 years, is by a company called Newer and they have positive and called positive and I think negative systems.

[00:25:07] Andy Graham: And I think that depending on the environment and where they're placed, they do a slightly different thing and they will assess the situation for you and tell you, um, and be able to recommend what would be best. One of the challenges I have found in the past is that because of the fire doors that we typically have in.

[00:25:24] Andy Graham: HMOs that there are certain challenges, but there are some very specific, so what, just to be clear as well, we're not necessarily just talking about a single fan or a single ventilation system in a room. You can actually get these intelligently designed solutions often that, that actually the actual unit might be placed in a loft environment or something like that, and they can operate across the whole house.

[00:25:46] Andy Graham: They cost a few quid, but I found that these are very, very good. Not, don't necessarily do the full job, but they are very, very good. I mean, let's talk about bathrooms, Mary, wet environments. What would your recommendation be there for HMO landlords and investors?

[00:26:02] Mary: Two different things you can, the normal one that is probably best for en suites is the kind of the time of ventilations that you can get the extractor fans, so you can set them to a 15 minute, 10 minute, half an hour ventilation because it's inside someone's room.

[00:26:21] Mary: They don't actually like hearing that go off a lot. Sometimes you can go and see HMOs and they've switched them off

[00:26:27] Andy Graham: sometimes. I mean, almost every time they've switched it off. Let's be honest.

[00:26:31] Mary: Because they're not, that's a rough

[00:26:33] Andy Graham: I know. And it's a very, again, that's why inspecting is so important. Like little things like that.

[00:26:38] Andy Graham: I've got damp mode. Well, because you have had the fan turned off and you had, that's been the case every time we've been inspected. But sorry, I interrupt. I get off my soapbox.

[00:26:48] Mary: Absolutely. So, yeah, timer of ventilations are very good for en suite, and there's a level of kind of control over it in general, bathrooms that aren't too close to bedrooms.

[00:27:00] Mary: And then in where you've got washing machines and dryers and things like that, humidity, extractor plants are really good, so they can basically assess, they have a sensor in them. They can assess when the humidity's high and at a certain level, and then they'll just stay on until the humidity drops. And that's really helpful and it can save a lot of mold and down headache.

[00:27:23] Andy Graham: Yeah, I agree completely with that. I think it's also worth saying that there are lots of different products on the market and you tend to get what you pay for. So if you want to a high powered, a more reliable unit and potentially a unit that's quieter, that tend to less likely to turn off, you might spend more.

[00:27:41] Andy Graham: In the context of this conversation, think about whether or not that might be a sensible investment. If you want to avoid replacing it or having issues, it probably is the sort of thing you want to spend a few more quid on. Another thing that I would just point out is that ventilating bathrooms to the external can be a bit of a challenge.

[00:27:59] Andy Graham: With so many en suites in houses, we know that. Unless there's a clear run or you just happen to be going out in the same direction as joist, it can be a bit of a challenge. Sometimes dropping a ceiling is a solution, but irrespective, what I would recommend is that where possible put a rigid ducting system.

[00:28:18] Andy Graham: Because it just maintains much greater pressure than a flexible ducting system. So this guy's just, you're not quite sure what I'm talking about between, let's say the fan in the ceiling above the shower, and then the external wall where it's actually vented out that distance between you could use a flexible ducting system, which you'll have almost certainly seen.

[00:28:38] Andy Graham: It's good because it can get round, awkward spaces a bit better, but typically speaking, that pressure that's able to maintain just isn't as high, so it doesn't extract as well. If you can get a rigid system out there, it's much, much better and you're gonna get better performance. And documenting all of this, just having the photographs, the evidence, the information about the systems that you've used, all gray if slash when you do have problems with these sorts of things.

[00:29:02] Andy Graham: And I think just again, so all of our listeners understand if you've got five, six en suites. And you need ventilation to every room, and you need ventilation from every bathroom, and you want it done in a particular way. This is the sort of information that's very easily lost in translation. Your expectations are misaligned and you end up overpaying for lots of work because your contracts are just hadn't priced it in.

[00:29:25] Andy Graham: Yeah. If you're working with Andrew, Mary, this sort of stuff as part of your m and e design will all be considered and then that information. Can be given straight to your contractor so you can get it priced and the job done on that basis. And then you've got part of that information to support or form part of your pack for future sort of documentation and evidence if you ever need it.

[00:29:46] Andy Graham: Thanks guys. I think that this stuff is really important. It, you know, they are kind of boring subjects, let's be honest, but really important, I think if we wanna get this right and we want to spend less in the long term and also keep tenants happier, this is important now. That brings me really nicely onto a couple of other things that I want to discuss today.

[00:30:05] Andy Graham: Let's just jump straight to adaptability and trying to push for longer tendencies. We know that with the new legislation, tenants can leave effectively, you know, after month two, not great. And we want to make sure that this isn't happening because tenants who leave, it's just gonna cost us money. So talk to us about adaptability and long-term solutions to try and promote and encourage longer tenancies.

[00:30:31] Andy Graham: And I think by the way, that better heating solutions, fewer damp mold, condensation issues, they are a great starting point. But what other ideas could you share with us guys?

[00:30:41] Mary: Yeah, so in terms of adaptability, we are obviously creating mainly HMOs. The occupants are solely responsible for their rooms, and they occupy their rooms quite often.

[00:30:55] Mary: So it's really important for us to understand how these rooms can be adaptable. The size of these rooms is critical. People want to feel like they can personalize the space. They might want to move the furniture around, make it more adaptable, introduce maybe their own desks, et cetera. So now is the time for us to really think hard about what does it mean to design these spaces, and what does it mean to be able to give the tenants enough flexibility for them to call those spaces their own homes, to make it personal to themselves.

[00:31:29] Mary: So design really comes hand in hand with that. And then on top of that, as part of the designing those spaces, it's really important to get the storage just right. And we bang on about this quite often is that these tenants, again, they've mainly got this room. They can't store things outside of this room.

[00:31:48] Mary: So getting, maximizing storage under beds, big wardrobes, desk space storage, any other kind of sports storage that they can have is ideal to maximize and consider within the room.

[00:32:02] Andrew: We like to think that we're, obviously we're architects and we know the best way to lay out a room, but you wouldn't believe the amount of times we've got into our rooms and you know, of those.

[00:32:12] Tenants completely switched all the furniture around and the wardrobes at the end of the bed. And you're thinking like, how does that even function is in the middle of the room And like, you know, both people want to change things and people are living live in different ways, don't they? So. Having that ability for it to be tweaked, I think is a, is a big postpone Potential tenets.

[00:32:30] Andy Graham: Yeah, and I think that if you're not a designer, and most of us aren't designers, it's really easy to overlook how a space can potentially function the best in terms of circulation space, but also using otherwise perhaps non-functional wall space really does determine. Where ideally the bed might go or where other furniture runs might go and things like that.

[00:32:52] Andy Graham: And it does need to be planned in from the outset. How many times have we seen people design rooms and the project looks great, but by the time they put the furniture in there, all the sockets and switches and everything's just kind of in the wrong place, and actually the room doesn't really work. And then, yeah.

[00:33:07] Andy Graham: And then the tenants inevitably come in and they then change things around the themselves as well. Mm-hmm. So I think that, again, something that should be thought about at the outset, it can be designed into your scheme. You tell the contractor exactly where each switch and socket is gonna go because the bed and their desk and the wardrobe and the chairs, and they're all gonna go in these sorts of positions.

[00:33:26] Andy Graham: But yeah, I think any reason we give for a tenant to leave is a detriment to our business now. And I think that, you know, we're all so focused on trying to make our HMOs log as best as they possibly could do because we want to hit that target on the spreadsheet and we wanna get it to a hundred percent occupancy as quickly as possible.

[00:33:44] Andy Graham: Please don't forget, guys, that what we really want to be aiming for is keeping that property full for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And it's this really granular detail that it's just so often overlooked and actually doesn't take much more time to really think about. It might cost a few more quid, but it'll save you so much in the long term.

[00:34:07] Andy Graham: Let me get your opinion on one thing in particular, 'cause this popped up in my inbox this week. Pets in HMOs. Just Jim, we know that there's a change to the legislation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's a requirement in HMOs, but I just wanna get your, your personal opinion is on this. How do you guys feel if a tenant asks you if they can have a pets?

[00:34:27] Andrew: We've had it already in the past, even before this legislation changed. The dogs, we had a, a legal cat in HMO that but we, we, we had thrust the tenant to, well, it was either the cat or the tenant. The tenant went with the cat. So we've already had it and like, look, we're anti pets in general, but unfortunately I just don't think that they can and will ever work in HMOs banking on.

[00:34:56] Andrew: Obviously even at the outset way, if everyone's on board with that potential tenant having a pet, mm, you've gotta then think about the future change over and then with future tenants that you might be moving in. Allergies for example, is, could be a big thing and that could stop potential tenants or limit your potential tenants moving in.

[00:35:14] Andrew: So yeah, I'm not sure pets in HMOs will actually ever happen, and I think there'll be enough. Grounds to be able to refuse a, a pet in a HMO. Mm-hmm. But it's still gonna, even if you are just moving away, I know we focus on HMOs, but if you're designing blocks of flats by to let, it's something that you are gonna need to start considering.

[00:35:32] Andrew: Mm-hmm. And maybe start thinking about. Your finishes, do you have a lot more hard flowing around the property? What paint are you putting on the walls? Something that's durable or wiped clean, easily wiped clean, and then potentially more storage even needed for, for these pets and on their operate says, where's the cage going to go in the room?

[00:35:51] Andrew: Right? Where we gonna go to this level of detail to figuring out where the dog's bed might go? It's gonna add a whole another level of level thought process. 

Andy Graham:Yeah. Again, I think it just reiterates, doesn't it? That we need to think more from the outset. I agree with you, especially when it comes to professional HMO.

[00:36:07] Andy Graham: I don't think pets really work because one person changes. You gotta fill that room and actually there might be issues or allergies or problems. I will say that in my student HMOs on a case by case basis, I let them, and I have found that I've been able to maintain really great relationships with some of my tenants because of that.

[00:36:28] Andy Graham: Now, I will add that a lot of my tenants study veterinary medicine, so they are quite animal orientated people. Yeah. But I will also say that on one occasion I let somebody do it and she promised me the dog was really behaved and the dog ate half the sofa. And uh, I had to call Dale at Landlord Furniture Co and ask him for a new sofa.

[00:36:44] Andy Graham: I also had another tenant who, and again, so I do it on a case by case basis, but she had been a difficult tenant for a few reasons. Not something I often experience with students falling out with the house mates, that kind of thing, and insisted that she needed a therapy dog. And that's difficult because obviously where tenants maybe feel like they're struggling would find benefit from having certain things you want to try and oblige where you can.

[00:37:08] Andy Graham: But my gut instinct was that I don't think this tenant and a pet is a good combination. I think it's gonna make a bad situation or worse. If this particular tenant proceeded to get a Belgian malamute, which for anyone who doesn't know is like a police dog. Not great for a student to bring a puppy, Belgium Meir home, who yes, proceeded to eat the stairs, which was not cool.

[00:37:27] Andy Graham: And obviously in the end that dog had to leave and it caused a big upheaval. But I think on a case by case basis in student HMOs, it can work well if you've got a good relationship with tenants, but you've gotta be, gotta be really careful. But I completely agree. Buy to lets blocks of flats, those sorts of things.

[00:37:42] Andy Graham: Now we do need to be thinking more about durability, the types of materials, the space functionality, and that sort of thing. Let's talk about just good positioning in general. I think just on this topic of trying to keep tenants happier, trying to reduce the risk that tenants feel like for whatever reason they want to move somewhere, find alternative or better accommodation, what other things do you think we should be paying more and more attention to?

[00:38:09] Andrew:I think like just the things that you think are quite minor now an A tenant is likely to put up with, because of the fact that they're in a fixed term. Tenancy. They're the bits that I think are gonna become more in the forefront of everyone's mind because they have the ability to leave and, uh, within two months and or almost immediately after moving in.

[00:38:32] Andy Graham: And that could be small items, like, I dunno, the light in the bathroom flickers or something. Or it could be relationships and interactions with other tenants. We have a HMO that we have a constant battle about the mess. In the communal area. We've ended up, after being told by everyone in the house and nothing belonged to them, we then emptied all the belongings that were in the living room, and then literally within 30 minutes, we had two emails from tenants telling it up.

[00:39:00] Andy Graham: We've removed their stuff, and it's like, we've also got emails from you telling us. Then none of the stuff in there is yours. You know what I mean? Like which one is it? But you know, if tenants are being messy, they're leaving bikes in the lounge, you know, suitcases on the shelves in the communal area.

[00:39:12] Andy Graham: Little things like that might just. People might just be like, well, you know what? I can leave in two months and I can't, I can't be bothered with this. So I think there's the design elements, there's keeping on top of maintenance elements and then there's also just so through inspections and trying to maintain and ensure that the actions of the other tenants are also, uh, not gonna cause friction with other people.

[00:39:36] Andy Graham: Hmm. I agree. I think some good policies about certain things. I think bikes in hallways is great. Very easy to justify from a fire risk perspective. A little tip, and you know, rightly or wrongly, I've found over the years that it's not a great idea to provide storage solutions in communal spaces because they tend to get used for clutter and junk side tables, drawers, just the extra fridge that you don't wanna throw away that gets banged under the stairs.

[00:40:03] Andy Graham: I've seen it all a million times, shelves. Just not great, I think in communal spaces and it gets very difficult for cleaners. We've all seen it happen with the mail just piles up on that coffee table just down the side of the sofa that nobody really uses. It's just a dumping zone. Yeah, so I think that really good sensible storage solutions in private zones.

[00:40:21] Andy Graham: Then very sort of carefully selected, I think, in communal spaces where kind of really well thought is a sensible idea. And I think we talked about this before we hit record, just more thoughtful design. I know a lot of us are doing that, but there are still people who design is is a kind of an afterthought.

[00:40:37] Andy Graham: I mean, what tips Mary, would you share or recommend when it comes to sort of better and more thoughtful design?

[00:40:43] Mary: I think it's important to get into the mindset of the tenants, or you as the tenants are coming through the spaces and understanding actually, how do you want the lighting in your spaces to feel light and bright and airy so it doesn't feel just as a space itself.

[00:40:59] Mary: It doesn't feel cluttered, it doesn't feel overwhelming, it doesn't feel dense. They come at the end of the day when they're quite tired, so they want spaces they can feel comfortable in, they can feel like they can kind of breathe out in

[00:41:14] Andrew:: not so much moisture though.

[00:41:18] Mary: And then again, like we said, when entering your bedroom, if you maximize storage solution within the bedroom, it means that there's spaces are left without clutter.

[00:41:28] Mary: And that really helps someone's mental state and the way they are, and that really helps them to use the space really well. Having desk space, please, please, everybody. Even if the room's small, have desk spaces, lots of people work from home, so it's really important to orientate these bedroom areas.

[00:41:48] Mary: So you've got, even though it's a small space, they've got a nice relaxing space for your bed. You've got a space that you get changed in. You've got a space that you can work in, and then a little zone that you can put your mat out and do yoga or pray. I think considering something like that and getting into the mindset of the tenants is really important.

[00:42:10] Andy Graham: We are planning a scheme at the minute, and granted it's a slightly larger than the average HMO. It's more sort of in the region of 50 to 60 rooms, but it's great fun because it really forces you to think about the other amenities and thoughtful use of space in a way that perhaps you're not necessarily forced to do.

[00:42:28] Andy Graham: When it comes to a HMO on larger schemes, the council's actually going to scrutinize. These other elements of shared amenity more so than in smaller private HMOs. But I think we can take those principles and apply them to anything now. I think this has been a really interesting conversation, guys, and the theme on the podcast this year so far has largely been about the changing direction of the sector for is the fact that standards are changing, that the grid is gonna be more pressure on landlords, and we do need to be mindful.

[00:42:56] Andy Graham: I think that complacency this year will come at a very big, big cost. A cost that some landlords will find that they actually just cannot shoulder. But I think that if you're doing new projects, if you're going back and revisiting projects, what you're planning for the future as some projects and some houses, and I've got these myself and my own portfolio as they come up for some natural.

[00:43:18] Andy Graham: Let's say rejuvenation. I think these sorts of things are exactly what we should all be considering, but future-proofing, please, everybody listening today, remember that the spreadsheet is only telling you what it's gonna perform like today. It tells you nothing about where you're likely to be in 5, 10, 15 years time, and we haven't even touched on opex and trying to keep costs down as we manage things moving forward.

[00:43:41] Andy Graham: Perhaps another episode, but guys. A great conversation as always. It's always so useful to get your professional insights, and you have this really unique view on the whole of the market because you work with so many people on HMO projects, so you see so much more than the average investor. So for anybody listening today, if you're doing another project, if you are revisiting a project.

[00:44:03] Andy Graham: Please go and have a conversation with Andrew and Mary. They can do everything for you. Optimization, just from the outset when you're thinking about buying something. They can do all of your full plans, regularized drawings, all your m and e stuff. Andrew's volunteered to give you personal advice on ventilation and heating.

[00:44:21] Andy Graham: That's obviously a joke. Please don't call Andrew about ventilation and heating, but in all seriousness. Take this stuff seriously. If you wanna go and catch up with Andrew & Mary, drop an inquiry and, and have a conversation with them about how they might be able to help you on a particular project, just head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk, find our services page, and you'll find a dropdown for Andrew & Mary, their architectural service.

[00:44:42] Andy Graham: But guys, as always, huge pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for all of your. Insights, they help us to no end. And yeah, I'm sure that many people listening today will be about to kind of drop you an enquiry because they need your services, but thank you so much.

[00:44:57] Andrew & Mary: Thank you so much Andy.

[00:45:05] Andy Graham: That is it. For today's episode, guys, thank you for tuning in. Big thank you to Andrew and Mary for coming on and sharing all of their wisdom with us. Like I said, head over to theHMOroadmap.co.uk. Find the area on the website for our services. Find a dropdown for Andrew and Mary's Architectural Services, and you can drop an inquiry with them right now if you are investing in HMOs.

[00:45:26] Andy Graham: If you are building your property business, make sure you get signed up. As a member, it is an absolute vault, a library of resources, videos, case studies, and everything else. You need to start, scale and systemise your HMO property business. It'll save you tens of thousands of pounds. It'll save you hundreds of hours, and it'll help you just get a little bit more from every single pound you invest in HMOs.

[00:45:48] Andy Graham: I guarantee it is an absolute no brainer and you will not regret it. Now, if you've got 30 seconds before you leave the show today, please, please, please leave a quick review. Guys, it helps more than you could possibly know. Those nice shiny five stars help us spread the word about the podcast even further.

[00:46:06] Andy Graham: It helps continue to bring great guests like Andrew & Mary on the show, and it gives me that nice, warm, fuzzy feeling. So if you have got 30 seconds to spare, please leave a review and let us know what you think about the show. That's it guys. Thanks again for tuning again, and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.