From 3-Bed Terraces to £3M Projects: Inside a £12k PCM Deal with Emma Estill

Emma Estill and her husband Dan from Stylish Living started their property journey in 2019 with simple three-bed terraces. Just a few years later, they’re developing £3 million sites, running their own build team, and managing multiple businesses in property.

In this episode, Emma shares how they scaled through challenges, stayed family-focused, and built success by taking on tough projects. We’ll also discuss their standout deal — a derelict nightclub with planning and access issues that most investors avoided. They transformed it into a property generating over £12,000 net per month.

Tune in to hear Emma’s journey, the lessons learned, and why saying yes to the hard stuff can pay off big.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy. I'm Andy, and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio, and what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment, and I've managed thousands of tenants join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best price. And everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now. 

[00:00:40] Andy Graham: Today I'm joined by an old friend of mine and a former Mastermind, Emma Estill now, Emma and her husband Dan started out in property in 2019, buying three bed terraces. But fast forward a few years and they're now developing 3 million pound sites. They're running their own build team. They've got a design studio, they've got a letting agency the whole lot.

[00:00:56] Andy Graham: Today's episode is about scaling through the challenges, and Emma is about to share a whole host of challenges with us. But what really caught my attention was a deal that Emma and husband did recently, derelict nightclub that nobody wanted. It was above shop poor access planning that didn't necessarily stack a logistical nightmare.

[00:01:13] Andy Graham: Most people ran a mile from this deal, but not Emma and Dan. They did something incredible with it, and it now brings in over 12,000 pounds every single month net. We're gonna talk about how Emma and Dan have scaled up, how they've kept it family led, how Emma's built a business by saying yes to the hard stuff.

[00:01:30] Andy Graham: This is one of those episodes that I think's gonna leave you thinking, maybe I can go bigger, maybe I can do more. And of course, we're gonna find out everything we possibly can about this nightclub deal. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

[00:01:48] Andy Graham:  Hey guys, it's Andy here. We are gonna be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I wanna tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you are serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:02:05] Andy Graham: Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals, and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:02:20] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:02:35] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now, and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:02:59] Andy Graham: Hi Emma. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today.

[00:03:01] Emma Estill: Hello, Andy. Thank you very much for having me.

[00:03:04] Andy Graham: It's a pleasure. You and I have obviously known each other for a long time. Emma, you were one of the original Mastermind members on the program that I ran with Jade. And you've done some really, really, really great stuff.

[00:03:15] Andy Graham: Uh, and recently shared another case study for us inside the HMO Roadmap, which I would love to talk about today, but I can't believe that this is. The first time you've been on the show in the sort of the four years. So I feel like we have got so much that we could actually discuss today. 

[00:03:30] Emma Estill: I know it's been a long time. Like when I think back to when we first started sort of networking and connecting and working together on the Mastermind, how quickly our businesses has has grown for one. Um. The different person that I am now. The systems and processes in place, everything we've learned, the size of projects we're doing, it's phenomenal to think like, it's only been really a few years, hasn't it?

[00:03:55] Emma Estill: It has. Like it's crazy. Yeah. Lot lots to discuss. 

[00:03:57] Andy Graham: Absolutely. Well, I think your journey and everything that you're doing is both really, really inspiring and also really interesting. I know, and I'm sure we're gonna talk about this today, that it hasn't been easy at times as well. That's the nature of building these sorts of businesses. But Emma, for anyone listening today that perhaps hasn't come across you yet, tell us a little bit about yourself and Dan and Stylish living, what it all looks like now and, and where we all began.

[00:04:20] Emma Estill: Okay, where do I begin? Okay, so Stylish Living is our brand, that's our public facing company. We try to encompass our mantra, I guess, which is Build a Lifestyle you love and that comes across in everything from, it starts within the core of the business.

[00:04:37] Emma Estill: So ultimately, as a mum of two, you know, we've got, we've got two children, Freddy, who's seven, Amelia, who's five. Having that lifestyle element. It's really important to me that I wanna be a present mom, but I wanna be active. I wanna be able to take the kids on multiple holidays, multiple experiences, and I just need that time and flexibility.

[00:04:56] Emma Estill: I've got that now. I'm the mom that's dropping the kids off every day at school. I'm picking them up every day. I'm working in between. I'm juggling it all, but I'm making it happen and I'm there for all the important moments of the kids. So ultimately, that lifestyle element is fundamental. We then bring that across in the actual properties and the design and the way that we put our properties together for our tenants and also our guests.

[00:05:17] Emma Estill: 'cause we do a lot of service accommodation, but I'm sure we'll come to that later. But essentially, Stylish Living. We're a family-run business first and foremost. It started, let me think, when was this? This was at, it was at the end of 2018. My now husband Dan, who I run the business with, and I, we were both at a bit of a crossroads.

[00:05:37] Emma Estill: We'd not long had Freddy. I think Freddy was just coming up to one years old. And my previous background, I worked in marketing so well before I'd moved back home to Leicestershire, I was working in London and Birmingham a lot, and I was dealing with like multimillion pound marketing budget. So I loved my job and I really did.

[00:05:55] Emma Estill: But then I kind of moved back home. I decided to go freelance and I think. After a couple of years of doing that, although it was all right and I was earning good money, I had more flexibility and not having to do that dreaded commute to London every day. I wasn't happy. And I think when I had Freddie, I just realised that I didn't wanna go back to that corporate world.

[00:06:13] Emma Estill: Dan was similar. He'd always been involved in building, his dad was a property developer. He'd been bought up on building sites. He was a brickie by trade. He did brick laying. At 16, we left school. So he'd always had that experience of sort of managing multiple sites. And we just knew that we wanted to do something different.

[00:06:31] Emma Estill: 'cause I think anyone who's had a, their first child, you know that your priorities just change as soon as you have that, that baby to look after. And we just knew we wanted do something different. And naturally, my background and expertise is project management, it's marketing, it's business. I'm very creative, but also quite analytical, so I've got those sort of skills.

[00:06:51] Emma Estill: Stick me with an Excel spreadsheet and a marketing calendar, and I'm happy. Dan, on the other hand, has a completely different skillset. He's a builder by trade. He's in person managing all of the different contractors, and I think the obviously naturally as well my. I had a side interest in interior design, which is obviously naturally what most women love to do.

[00:07:12] Emma Estill: So we just kind of put those two together and we decided to start up our own property company and get into property development. And then Stylish Living was born.

[00:07:22] Andy Graham: And here we are now,

[00:07:24] Emma Estill: And here we are now. So our first project. We bought a three bed terrace property. We bought it for 145,000. We converted it into five HMO rooms.

[00:07:35] Emma Estill: They all had an en suite, but at that time, we weren't doing studios, we weren't doing kitchenettes. It was just your bog standard. Three rooms upstairs, two rooms downstairs, and a communal kitchen lounge. We got that refinanced at 350,000 pounds, and I think at the time we spent something like 90,000 pounds on it.

[00:07:52] Emma Estill: So for our first deal, it was all money out and again, we used an angel investor for it. So again, we started a business with none of our own money. So we had an angel investor on it. We did the typical buy a property on bridge finance. Do the works, add the value, get it refinanced, pay the investor back.

[00:08:09] Emma Estill: And I think, I can't remember the exact because, because it was about seven years ago, but I'm sure we made about 40,000 pounds money out on our first deal. And we were like, whoa, there's something really magical here. Let's do this again. That's how we began. So we've gone from doing a five bed HMO. To now, we're currently doing a new build conversion with a 3 million budget, which is 26 studios, and that's in six and a half years.

[00:08:33] Andy Graham: So things have moved so incredibly quickly for you guys. Just a little bit, I mean, thinking it back to when you guys sat and and made that decision initially to do this, to build the property business, was it scary, Emma? Do you remember how it felt at the time?

[00:08:46] Emma Estill: Yeah, I think it was, we didn't know what we were doing. Like anyone who starts off in property, we didn't know what we were doing. There was so much to it. We still till this day have a running joke in our small agency team that we always say every day is a learning day. Because every single day a new problem comes up, a new issue, a new learning, whether it's a tenant issue or a guest issue through to the steel that's been measured wrong, and it's been delivered on site and installed, and then we have to take it all out again.

[00:09:15] Emma Estill: We have come across. Every kind of issue you can imagine. We've probably come across from financing to, oh, I could name a thousand things, but I think what we've learned, and the biggest learning that I have took away from this in these nearly seven years is that there is actually a solution for everything.

[00:09:32] Emma Estill: And that's what I continually tell myself. I mean, in the beginning days. I had obviously a toddler in tow. Soon after we had Freddy, we got pregnant with our second child, Amelia. So I actually was working, running this new business with no maternity leave. I had children climbing on me, children constantly crying in the background when I'm trying to do my meetings.

[00:09:53] Emma Estill: I'm trying to kind of learn it as I go and make it this business a success while, oh, and then when my, my second daughter, well my first daughter, my second child was born. She was born in November, 2019. Then COVID hit. So not only did we have a brand new business that was a couple of years old, two children under the age of two, we just completed on our nightclub project, and then we went into lockdown.

[00:10:19] Emma Estill: And you can in mum mean everybody knows who, anyone who's around at that time, which is pretty much everyone but. You can imagine how much more stressful that was of two young children, your biggest project to date, going into lockdown, not being able to work. And back then it was a, a really worrying and, and stressful time to say the least, but we overcame it all and delivered something really special.

[00:10:40] Andy Graham: We're gonna talk about that and I, I remember the challenges that, that time, that project and the combination of that bad timing brought for you guys. But it's really interesting to hear you talk about. Those early days running the business, because I think that there is still this misconception that for some people, the people who end up making it quite successful, it somehow started easily.

[00:11:02] Emma Estill: Absolutely not. You know, when you go to one of these property events and it's like passive income, make all your money from property. It's just the biggest lie. I can't even explain like how much work it's taken to even get in a remote. Like systemised process with our business because again, as well as the, so just to take it back a bit, my husband is a builder.

[00:11:24] Emma Estill: So we have our own building company that we set up at the start. So we build and develop all of our own properties. We have our own maintenance team, which helps us retain a lot of control with the costs and the delivery, which really does help us. 'cause we typically, we have at least. Our average is three projects on the go.

[00:11:41] Emma Estill: At any one time we like four, but at the moment we've got three. 'cause we've got such a large one in the background. But, so if we have four projects on the go, if you can imagine you are doing that with multiple build teams, you completely have no control. So I think that's probably a testament to how we've been able to build our unit delivery so fast.

[00:11:57] Emma Estill: But we quickly realised after the delivery of the first HMO unit. We were using a third party to manage it, like a letting agency. And I just quickly realised that their level of service, their level of quality, their productiveness, their, any urgency to fill my voids was just not there at all. And you know what it's like if, you know, at that time we had five rooms, if one of them's empty, there goes your profit.

[00:12:22] Emma Estill: And again. Being on maternity leave, every single pound counts, doesn't it? Like we weren't working, we weren't full in. We probably really should have carried on working and built it upon the side, but we just jumped in feet first and worked out as we went. But we quickly realised that the agents in our area just weren't delivering it to a standard that I wanted my portfolio to be managed.

[00:12:40] Emma Estill: So we actually set up our own letting agency at the same time as well, only to manage our own. We don't manage other people's. And that in itself, when I look back, I think now what. What we thinking to set up a letting agency as well. I mean, look, we still got it now. We make really good money on it. We retain control.

[00:13:00] Emma Estill: We're pretty much always a hundred percent occupancy because we have full control. We have the full processes and everything, and it works out well. But just back then, yeah. I think we just had a vision that how we wanted Stylish Living to be. We wanted the tenants to have the best service. We wanted the build to be delivered to the highest standards.

[00:13:18] Emma Estill: We wanted to do everything like as, as quick. That's the project management in me. I wanted to deliver everything to the best standards as quickly as possible while managing the budgets and trying to make profit as we went. And that's while obviously having that lifestyle element. And I think. By bringing all of those elements together and, and again, I think maybe with the marketing background in me, by always working for marketing agency, I always wanted my own agency.

[00:13:42] Emma Estill: I didn't necessarily, when I was at university think I'd want a property development agency, but here we are. And now we invest, we manage all the sourcing. We do the development, we do the design, and then we do all of the management and everything after. So we do retain full control of sort of the project from start to finish now.

[00:13:59] Andy Graham: So those are the different, so those are the different facets. Are they ms? You've got your own portfolio. Yeah. And a lot of that is stuff that you buy and you develop yourselves. Yes. Then you've got the agency, which caters for all your tenants and making sure that your properties are managed well and stay full. And then you've got a third party service where you actually find and acquire properties and projects for people.

[00:14:20] Emma Estill: Yeah. So essentially, so the investment element, I'm the person that sources all of the deals. We don't use a third party to source. I will do that. Standard way. Typically, I do have a good relationship with our agents because we have our own building company.

[00:14:34] Emma Estill: We do invest in our area where we live, so we're Midlands based, so all of our properties are in the Midlands. We haven't yet ventured out. When we do, then we will obviously have to change our model slightly and look to maybe work with more localised contractors. I'm not sure, but for now, everything we've done has been within the Midlands, which has enabled us to do the development ourselves, and I think.

[00:14:55] Emma Estill: Yeah, it's been quite a big learning curve, to say the least. But from the, being able to source deals, build those relationships with the agents has been really important to us. And then I will manage, we have a really good, I have a fantastic broker. Like my broker has been absolute testament to our success.

[00:15:12] Emma Estill: I mean, I was this in one of your podcasts the other day? We talk about having that great, that broker, those power team, those members. It that has been critical to us because it's really helped my learning. My broker's been doing it for. He's been in the industry. I don't wanna, he, he's a little bit older, but he is been doing it for a few decades to shall we say.

[00:15:28] Emma Estill: So he's, he is got very good experience in every project we've done. I'm constantly learning from him. So I think that's been testament. We have a great team of architects again, and every project we do, we are just trying to absorb all of their knowledge and their expertise and their information. And then, yeah, then once we get the keys, I'll then pass that over to my husband, Dan.

[00:15:47] Emma Estill: Who will then go ahead and manage the development with the support of the architects and any structural engineers. We have our own quantity surveyor, which happens to be Dan's brother. So on a larger project, we've got another level of expertise that's kind of feeding in. 'cause our projects can get bigger and bigger.

[00:16:02] Emma Estill: So as the business grows, we bring in that level of expertise to obviously help mine and Dan's knowledge grow. And I think then that's how we've, we've obviously been able to scale. And then yeah, then once, once Dan develops the project. It used to be just me, but now I have my portfolio manager, my property manager who help, and we'll go in and furnish the properties, style them, get the photographers in, and then they'll manage the rentals and all the guests if it's serviced accommodation.

[00:16:26] Emma Estill: So it is a full service, like from start to finish. That's all managed. In-house mainly with me overseeing it, but then with everybody else managing their key area.

[00:16:36] Andy Graham: Well, it certainly does sound like a full service thing that you guys have got going and you know, and it's not difficult to see why, Emma, that you've got so many great relationships with these key people that you know your personality and your work ethic, and I just think you as a person that has always been one of your strengths and sort of getting.

[00:16:55] Emma Estill: Thank you. That's nice

[00:16:56] Andy Graham: Pulling people in and to take an interest in, in what you are doing. And I think it, it's so important in this game, isn't it? Because the people that are responsible for kind of making all these different facets work really without them, none of this is possible in it. And I think the reality of developing and investing, especially in property, is that there is so much to do and so much to think about and so much specialist attention that it's needed for things. You quite literally can't do it independently, can you?

[00:17:21] Emma Estill: Oh, absolutely. And I think there's two parts of that. So there is, and again, this is just learning from the years, it's definitely working with the right people that like from, not just from a relationship aspect. 'cause you naturally need to be able to get on with them because especially if you're going to be doing it for the foreseeable future, you need to have a good working relationship with people.

[00:17:41] Emma Estill: That's business 101 isn't it? You know, you don't work with people, you don't get a good energy or a good vibe from because it's just not gonna end well. It's employing the right people with the right level of expertise for the project. But I just wanna say on the flip side of that, it hasn't always been easy.

[00:17:56] Emma Estill: We've not just worked with the same people from the start. We have had to. Terminate relationships, shall we say, with many people over the years, and that that has been, we've had to get rid of solicitors, different architects that probably weren't able to deliver what we wanted. Multiple of people on our contract team with our builders team, people have let us down and not delivered to the right level of service, and we've had to have very difficult decisions to make and discussions to have.

[00:18:23] Emma Estill: To be able to get to the position where we're at now. And I think as well, what the sort of, I know people would probably recognise it as a power team, the power team that we had at the start. The only person who is the same person is my broker. And I was just so fortunate to find him because he's more than a broker, he's more of a mentor to me.

[00:18:40] Emma Estill: And because our projects get larger and larger, there's things I don't know, there's a lot of things I don't know, especially when it comes to the planning elements. And we've recently completed our first mixed use property. So the lending, when you're doing the refinance is completely different to the normal commercial to residential that we've done.

[00:18:57] Emma Estill: So again, it is tapping into his expertise. To make me a proper investor, learning about the different yields of how a retail unit is valued when you're doing your commercial refinance. I didn't know that. And he helped me understand it. And then also, we also have great valuers that's, oh, sorry. That is another member of the power team.

[00:19:15] Emma Estill: We've always managed to work with the same commercial valuers from the start, so we have a fantastic relationship with them. So that helps when I, 'cause I do all the sourcing myself. I can look at a property now and it'll be, I, I don't know. We were looking at, say, an old cinema, for example, not so long ago.

[00:19:31] Emma Estill: I can look at that and be like, right. The top floor could be apartments. The bottom floor could be 12 studios. We could split it this way and this way I know roughly how much the bill costs are going to be because we have that control. I know roughly how much the values will be at, but it's a new area.

[00:19:47] Emma Estill: So again, before we even sort of submit our offer. I've got people such as valuers that I, I can help run past my own analysis to sort of sense check it for me, which really helps when you get in the bigger projects and the new locations. And then when those figures sort of come in at the point of, we then instruct the bridge finance and we get as far as doing the valuation, because I've done so much.

[00:20:08] Emma Estill: Groundwork and analysis in the background. Nine times out of 10 my valuations that I estimate it's gonna be, they're pretty much slap bang. I always have to go a little bit higher with a value 'cause they love to knock me down a little bit. But that's just the game they like to play. But typically speaking, I know where we're at now.

[00:20:24] Emma Estill: What we do, and I think that's definitely been testament to working with the right people, but having the relationship element, being able to go out for lunch with people who are quantity surveyors, brokers, lenders, and just asking those questions and getting that off the record sort of information to steer.

[00:20:42] Emma Estill: Our learnings has definitely been testament to how we've been able to scale the size of our project so quickly. It's not being afraid to ask questions as well.

[00:20:50] Andy Graham: Yeah, and I think one of the realities is that a lot of this does just come with a bit of time and a bit of experience, and it's really difficult when you're just starting, first of all, to even know that this is all the stuff that you might need to know or have in place, but then to actually find the right people.

[00:21:07] Andy Graham: Get that team and that structure right the first time for very few people. You know, I'm not sure I've ever seen an example where that's been the case. It takes time to build those relationships, and like you said, you've gotta separate some wheat from the chaff and keep trying to progress as a team and to get better over time.

[00:21:23] Andy Graham: And as an investor and as a developer, the same. I mean, just rewinding a little bit, Emma, in those earlier stages, are there any. Things that really stick out the real growing pains. You mentioned finance was one of them, setting up all these businesses.

[00:21:35] Emma Estill: Yeah, definitely. And I think as well, just a another point that's, that's coming to head.

[00:21:41] Emma Estill: It's like during those years I really struggled with my mental health. During one stage we were struggling so much. We had, I think we had multiple deals that were, especially during COVID times with, we had. Let's say the 12 month project took 18 months. The materials had like tripled in cost. There was a shortage of materials.

[00:21:59] Emma Estill: We had investors that would do their money back. We had all those sort of issues that can crop up as well as like future issues where we've had commercial developments where. Everything that could have gone wrong went wrong in terms of we were burgled and vandalized and all of the copper pipe work for eight apartments and three retail units were ripped out, and then it took six months to claim on the insurance because of certain issues.

[00:22:21] Emma Estill: And all of these delays just cost you tens of thousands of pounds. So there's been lots of times where I've and I, again, being a new business, without having a team in place, we are managing stuff that maybe a team of 10 should have been doing. It was on me, but again, I think the things that have helped me as well is.

[00:22:36] Emma Estill: About surrounding yourself with the right people. I've always had a mentor. I've always been involved in masterminds from the start. Obviously, like you said, the first time we met, when I first started the business, I was part of your mastermind, which really helped us. I've always had a mentor, so Jade from B Space, you know, obviously I've got a really good relationship with her.

[00:22:53] Emma Estill: She's been there since the beginning as well. And I think as a starting point, having someone such as yourself or Jade or somebody like that, that you can tap into. Just to get that level of expertise has, has been absolutely critical because there's been so many times when, realistically, me and Dan, my husband, always say we shouldn't still be going.

[00:23:12] Emma Estill: The amount of stuff we've had to get, get over and go through, but we kept going and kept going. And times were so hard times where we've, right. We don't see a way out of this. Like, we're gonna lose the project. We, we can't pay the investor back. But we've always sort of found a solution. All of our investors have always been paid back all of our deals.

[00:23:29] Emma Estill: I think all of our deals have been all money out apart from one that might have left like 20,000 pounds or, or something. And that's because of a delay that it went over the time. So the interest we're paying. But ultimately, I don't think we would've been able to continue to the level we have without having those relationships, those right people to kind of fall back on and help and get the advice and, and sort of tap into.

[00:23:52] Emma Estill: And it's, it's always been, like I say, when, when we started. Although I did have a project management and a marketing background property, absolutely nothing in the world of. Bridge, finance, refinance, commercial valuations, tenants, all, everything that falls into property, even even stamp duty and tax. I think I'd only really bought one house.

[00:24:13] Emma Estill: My house a couple of years prior to when we started the business was my only, and I was a first time buyer then. So. It was only a small house. I didn't have any of that experience. And yeah, it's definitely surrounding yourself with those right people to support you. Especially during the hard times when you think you wanna walk away. And you think there's no other option, and you're like, whoa, I've done too much. 

[00:24:33] Andy Graham: Well, I think that this is another thing that. You are talking about as well, Emma, and it, it's a certain amount of resilience that I think you just need. I've learned this as well. Business is quite easy when things are going well, but actually doing good business is about how you manage things when it's not going well.

[00:24:48] Andy Graham: And as an investment in develop an owner of companies like yours. You tend to find yourself at the bottom of a funnel, and the worst problems filter their way through to you. And some of them are pretty serious problems, like mentioned repaying investors and valuations and projects being significantly delayed, and it's very, very difficult at times.

[00:25:07] Andy Graham: But I think that's, I love bringing people like yourself on the show, Emma, because that very honest, unfiltered, yeah. Experience I think is so important and the reality is. No matter what we do and what we learn, there is a point at which we have to take that leap as that we have to just do it and accept that it's probably not going to be perfect.

[00:25:28] Andy Graham: What can I do to try and reduce the risk?

[00:25:30] Emma Estill: Yeah, it never, never will be. That's why I've still not got a website live because I'm a perfectionist, but I think as well. All of our projects have had an element of risk. We are risk takers. We try to be calculated risk takers. Now we have made mistakes. One of our biggest learning curves, we were trying to buy a large commercial building couple of years ago, this, this was probably one of the toughest times I've ever had in business and in life.

[00:25:58] Emma Estill: We'd, we'd already done a lot of the planning work. We spent a lot of money on architects. It was, it was gonna be our biggest project at the time. Very long story short, it was a mixed use building and we're very close to completing. We had all, we've got the valuation that we needed. It was the GDV was like over 2 million.

[00:26:13] Emma Estill: We had all the bridge lending set up. We'd done all the legals. We'd done all the plans, the construction, we were ready to go to hit the ground running. We'd invested a lot of money into it, and the solicitors had missed something. It was because there was leases involved in the ground, the ground floor of the building.

[00:26:29] Emma Estill: And again, leases isn't something I have never, ever been involved in. It's completely above anything I would understand. So I, you naturally trust a solicitor who's a commercial solicitor to be able to do this in your interest. That's what you pay them for, right? They, they're there to deal it, deal with it.

[00:26:45] Emma Estill: Anyway, the solicitor done all of their reports, everything was fine. They, they reviewed the leases like everything was done and passed to the lender. We were the day or let, it might not be the day before completion, but we were certainly within the week before the completion. And somebody, whether it was the le, I think it was the lender solicitor doing the final checks, picked upon an issue with the lease and it, it basically meant that we couldn't have built, it was basically we were trying to build.

[00:27:10] Emma Estill: I can't remember how many it was now, but it was, I dunno, maybe like 20 HMOs or something on the top two floors because it was a really large commercial building, but their lease meant that we couldn't build in the middle, which completely scrapped all of our plans. It meant that the GDV valuation was now invalid and it all just went completely.

[00:27:27] Emma Estill: Tips up, shall we say. And it was something that was completely out of our control. I couldn't have picked up on it because I don't have that level of knowledge. Yeah, it turned into a really, really big problem for us. We didn't end up completing on the property. We pulled away from it because then the seller was getting annoyed of us and he wanted more money.

[00:27:44] Emma Estill: And then the lease, they couldn't get the lease of, and it was just a really, really tricky time. It was a big learning curve from us, and we had to sack our solicitor at the time. That was one that we'd worked with. From the very beginning because what became apparent is the solicitor did not have the level of expertise that we needed to do this level of deal.

[00:28:00] Emma Estill: And I think we'd gone from working with this commercial solicitor for our normal HMOs. You know, even like a, we bought. A bed and breakfast into and converted into an 11 bed, that was fine 'cause it was quite a standard transaction. But then all of a sudden we, we've took another leap and we're going to the next big, where we're buying these huge, beautiful, big commercial mixed use buildings and all of a sudden they did not have the level of expertise.

[00:28:24] Emma Estill: And yeah, we lost out on what could have been a great deal and it was a massive learning curve from a, for us. And it was really, really hard. It'd put a lot of pressure on me mentally. When you work with your husband or your partner or your spouse or your family member, you naturally have a lot of stress between your relationship.

[00:28:39] Emma Estill: It was really, really difficult, but we came through it. We learned from it. We worked out where the gaps were in our expertise and knowledge. 'cause we weren't going back to do the smaller deals anymore. We're only gonna get bigger and better. And we then employed a new solicitor who is absolutely amazing and you can just see the difference in the quality.

[00:28:59] Emma Estill: Like, because we've since had another mixed use building that in incorporated leases. And we have to have our own leases now 'cause we are now the landlord of retail shops. And just again, the difference of having the right person for the right project at the right time, it's again, that's enabled us to transform our business because we, we had a gap in our knowledge and expertise.

[00:29:20] Emma Estill: We lost out on the deal, we then changed that, got the right person in the right seat, and now we've got that level of expertise. And again, I'm, I can then learn from that person and then we progress, progress further. But yeah, it was a difficult time to say the least, but it's how you learn from it, how you grow from it, how you minimize your risk.

[00:29:42] Emma Estill: Especially if you wanna be doing our sort of ideal project now is we only really do commercial to residential now. That's kind of our niche. We've, we've become a, a very strong competitor in that market, in our region. Buying those commercial buildings and needing planning is always going to be a risk.

[00:29:58] Emma Estill: We do now have good relationships with planners that we can have an off the record conversation with. We have obviously our valuers. We, you know, we can minimise that risk. It's never eliminated, of course, but I think now we've got three projects currently in Legals and one that's completed. One we bought from auction.

[00:30:15] Emma Estill: It's a commercial building and we've, we are just working with the architects to finalise which scheme we're going for, but we bought it knowing we will get something, we'll get something like, it's fine. It's, it's an old army cadet building on a single floor with a big carpark right in a town center, so we know we'll get something.

[00:30:33] Emma Estill: It was a great price. The schemes we've now designed is either five three bed new build houses. Which is great 'cause that'll be our first new build houses that we've done within our company, or a block of 12 one bed apartments, which we have got experience doing new build apartments. What we are looking at now is obviously we're doing the analysis on the financials and, and then we'll obviously.

[00:30:56] Emma Estill: We've had off the record conversation with the planners so we know sort of where we are in terms of if, if parking is required and if it's not, and all those sort of answers. And then now it's just for me to kind of maybe take my valuer out for a little cheeky lunch and just run that, those options by them to get their opinion in terms of what will be worth the most money.

[00:31:15] Emma Estill: And then we'll be ready to submit for planning. So we're taking our time with this one because it's a really nice new build project for us and we wanna make sure. Everything works in terms of the bill cost versus the end value. Everything we've done to date as well, we've never sold it. That is a bit of a, a market That probably scares me a bit because I'm very comfortable with the strategy of.

[00:31:36] Emma Estill: Buy, refurbish or build and then refinance to hold. And I think if we did the new build houses, we could refinance them to rent them, but is it gonna be worth as much financially as renting all the apartments as? So our strategy is all inclusive, fully furnished, so obviously the apartment. So anyway, it's just a bit of analysis that, that we're sort of doing on that bit.

[00:31:56] Andy Graham: How important is the cash flow, Emma, that you guys have already generated from things like your HMOs, when you are now looking at these other slightly different projects that are very capital intensive with a slightly different exit strategy, would you do those sorts of projects without the HMOs and that sort of cash flow in the background?

[00:32:12] Andy Graham: And I ask you, 'cause this is something that I've talked about and have thought about myself quite a lot. I do similar projects.

[00:32:18] Emma Estill: Yeah, so I think cashflow management has been one of the most difficult things I've ever had to get my head around. Not only just the cashflow of a deal, so you've got one deal you need to understand.

[00:32:31] Emma Estill: Obviously, you need to know the figures, like the back of your hand. You need to know what your different exit strategies are. Everything that you teach within the HMO roadmap, but. For us as well, because the way our structure is, and again, it's something that they don't teach you at school, they don't teach you, in most of these property events you go to, it's, you are actually running a business.

[00:32:49] Emma Estill: Like we have multiple businesses. Stylish living is of course the, the public brand that that's who we are. But in the background we have multiple small, uh, limited companies that obviously own different properties, different types, different areas, two building companies, and I have to oversee all of the financials and everything.

[00:33:05] Emma Estill: So your back returns, your tax. We have an accountant's doing it, but naturally the bookkeeping element and the project tracking is phenomenal. And I think with the cashflow element, I think setting the biggest learning for me was just, and the recommendation I tell to anyone that's just starting out is like, get your systems and your processes in place before you even do anything.

[00:33:26] Emma Estill: Because I remember once a few years ago, and again, we've, we've been through about three accountants over the years because. They just couldn't grasp what we are doing in terms of like the way the companies are interconnected, the way that we pay ourselves dividends, the way the one company will have the development finance to pay the building company because there's so much interconnection.

[00:33:46] Emma Estill: And I remember once the accountants had done their books at the end of the year. And that they weren't doing any like monthly managements or any monthly profit and loss, anything we have now that we didn't have them back then, 'cause naturally didn't really even know what they were, to be brutally honest.

[00:34:00] Emma Estill: And he came up, the accountants came to me and he was like, yes. So this year you've made a loss of 250,000 pounds or something. And I was like, how can we lose a quarter of a million pounds? Because we're in control. We spend what we get, like in terms of the development we spend, what we get. We haven't had.

[00:34:15] Emma Estill: A quarter of a million pounds to lose. Like how could that be possible? And anyway, it ended up with me spending about 12 weeks going back through all of the businesses, all the accounts to try and pinpoint, bear in mind, I'm not financially trained. It's probably the thing I hate the most about the business.

[00:34:31] Emma Estill: Got no real zero experience, but I had to go through zero working it all out. I'm seeing, and basically I found, I found the issue myself. 'cause they couldn't tell me what they were doing. Is because we have building companies. When we get the building companies, say a Travis Perkins, Travis Perkins will send you an invoice for your order.

[00:34:48] Emma Estill: They were reconciling that as an invoice due, and then we're paying it from the statement. And basically the accountants who were professionals in what they do, were duplicating all of our spend on projects, which is where the loss came from. So we'd gone from being told that we'd lost a quarter of a million pounds and thinking our business was going under.

[00:35:06] Emma Estill: To me, having to find the issue that we'd, and then discovering that we'd actually made substantial profit for the year. And that just is another example of the absolute mess I've had to deal with when employing people who are experts in their field. You know, they were an accountants, had multiple bookkeepers, but they just did not understand property.

[00:35:24] Emma Estill: They didn't understand builds and how it all interconnects. And, and again, it, it just goes back to making sure you've got the right person with the right level of expertise to help you because. We've been through so many issues with so many providers and stuff over the years, who should have known what they're doing.

[00:35:40] Emma Estill: You, you put your trust in them naturally and yeah, it all came to head and yeah, and then now I am, and again, it's still not perfect. I'd say the 'cause again, because we keep scaling, you know, we've gone from managing a 90,000 budget to one project, having a 3 million budget. I'm still trying to find the best way to sort of do that.

[00:36:00] Emma Estill: And especially when you've got. Multiple projects, trying to track the budget and we're, we're integrating a few new, like, project management software systems and stuff now, but again, that's the evolution of, of what we're doing. Every month we, we make ourselves a little bit better. It's like atomic habits.

[00:36:14] Emma Estill: You can get 1% better every single day. Look where you're gonna be in, in 12 and that's, that's all we've done. My focus now for the business is 'cause I head up the project management in terms of the financials and the budget. That's what I'm focused on now. We're pretty slick with our processes, with the lettings and the sourcing and the interior.

[00:36:30] Emma Estill: All that is. Pretty good now, but the finances and stuff, as you scale, you always find a new problem and it becomes a lot more of a beast to manage and, but yeah, definitely for someone starting out, making sure that you are doing your bookkeeping monthly, you've got someone who knows what they're doing in terms of property, they understand.

[00:36:46] Emma Estill: You know the stamp duty that can be payable and your taxes and CIS if you're employing contractors directly. Oh, it's endless.

[00:36:53] Andy Graham: Like you said, you are running a business as well as actually developing properties and you know, investing in projects as well. So you have to wear or be able to wear multiple hats and hearing you talk about systems and processes and people is so great to hear.

[00:37:07] Andy Graham: 'cause I remember several years ago. Pre COVID Mastermind that, you know, around that time you were going through all of that struggle and trying to figure it out and put things in place for the first time. I

[00:37:18] Emma Estill: I think I came in, I was like, yeah, I've decided that we're gonna take the, uh, lettings management in house and we're just doing this.

[00:37:25] Emma Estill: And I think I've got my brother in at the time. And we knew we had never experienced, I look back because like the lettings is so difficult, isn't it? Like, you know what tenants are like, like there's always issues. Oh my goodness. But, and I just look back and I just laugh and I was. What was I thinking? I mean, it's worked out all right now, but Yeah, it's a lot.

[00:37:43] Emma Estill: And you definitely looked at me like, are you sure you want to do that? I was like, yeah. How hard can it be? Whoa, I did not know what I was doing.

[00:37:50] Andy Graham: I think sometimes. And again, you know, I think back to when I was just getting started, there's some value in a certain degree of naivety. As long as that doesn't cost you too heavily, sometimes it's best not to know just how bad it could be.

[00:38:04] Emma Estill: Oh, absolutely. Like now, if you'd have told me six and a half years ago that I'd be sitting here talking to you after we, from the first mastermind saying, right, you are now, you've got two building companies, you've got X amount of business, you own this many properties, your portfolio's worth this amount.

[00:38:19] Emma Estill: And you're running a letting agency and you've also now run a service accommodation management agency. 'cause we do have a, we have two letting agencies now. We have the HMOs and we have our service accommodation. We are in a position now where we could scale, we could start to manage landlord portfolios if we wanted to.

[00:38:36] Emma Estill: It's something that maybe 'cause the cashflow would be good, but does it align with where we wanna be with stylish living? I'm not too sure that's something we are looking at, but with that slick with our processes now, that if a landlord came to me and he had X amount of properties and it hit all and we got on with him and stuff, then we could easily slot it into our management systems.

[00:38:55] Emma Estill: 'cause we are that good with it. But it has taken us years and years and a lot of mistakes, a lot of tears to even get anywhere near where our agency is today. We always jump in. We always like, well, we'll just element of risk. Just work it out as we go along that, that's kind of our mantra as well.

[00:39:12] Andy Graham: I'm conscious of time, but before we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about your nightclub project, which

[00:39:19] Emma Estill: that's my favorite project in project that I would love as much.

[00:39:24] Andy Graham: I mean just before. You share anything about this? We've got about a hundred ish case studies from community members inside the roadmap now, and this is hands down, one of my favorite summit. It is. So, yay.

[00:39:36] Emma Estill: Thank you. 

[00:39:37] Andy Graham: So unique in so many ways.

[00:39:39] Emma Estill: Ah, that's nice. And obviously now

[00:39:40] Andy Graham: I felt kind of to some extent a part of the project watching you Yeah.

[00:39:45] Andy Graham: Go through this and sharing the projects as you progress through it, but kinda high level just. Tell us about what that looks like now, number of units. I know you've got a couple of different types of units in there and the gross rent role because it's, it's pretty remarkable.

[00:39:59] Emma Estill: Yeah, sure. So I'll just take it right back to the beginning.

[00:40:03] Emma Estill: So again, we've had it, we completed the works in June 22. Yeah. I think we've had it like three and a bit years, is that right? Yeah, three and a bit years. So it was again, one of our first, it was actually our first real commercial project. We'd done like a corner shop and stuff. But yeah, it was our first big one.

[00:40:20] Emma Estill: And it was an old nightclub, but it wasn't just a nightclub. It was a nightclub that my husband Dan and our family used to go to. 'cause it's, it's in our town, it's, it's in our area. So when we saw it, it'd actually been on the market for somewhere along the lines of two years. So this building was on the market for two years.

[00:40:39] Emma Estill: It was the one that nobody wanted, and. When we saw it, obviously our business was growing. We were like, we got a bit more confident we'd been doing these all right projects. We looked at it and it came with planning permission to create, I think it was four. Extra large, like phenomenal size apartments.

[00:40:57] Emma Estill: And naturally, because we'd started doing HMOs and by that point we were moving to studios. We just went and looked at it and we looked it and we thought, this is so cool. I remember we walked in and it was like a proper nightclub on two floors with the dance floor where the DJ used to be the bar, and we were like, yeah, this is wicked.

[00:41:12] Emma Estill: We bought it with the planning in place for the apartment. 'cause obviously it had us, it was allowed to turn into residential, but as soon as we viewed it, I remember going back home and I think. Freddy was like probably, I don't know, two or something at the time, and I remember getting his crayons off the side with the plans and start literally drawing on what we could do.

[00:41:32] Emma Estill: We're like, right, we can add another floor here. We could split this into HMOs. We could do some apartments here. We can do a dormer extension of there. And we just, me and Dan just then started coming up with all these ideas like, wow, this has actually got. Potential to become a phenomenal project. And then, yeah.

[00:41:47] Emma Estill: Then long story short, we worked with some architects and we managed to fit in. We split. So you go, you go up the big stairs, if anyone's ever seen the photos, it's got a beautiful big entrance hall. It's the old club, it's the original club entrance hall where the club used to be. You go up and to the right of the building, which is the back, we now have 10 large HMO studios.

[00:42:08] Emma Estill: They're all around 20 square meters each ish. They're all slightly different unit 'cause of the way the building's a different size. Slightly unique in their size, but roughly around say 20, we also have what we call like the chill out rooms. So it's got like a 70 inch flat screen tv, big sofas, and then we've got the communal kitchen.

[00:42:25] Emma Estill: Each room is a studio. You have a really nice kitchenette in there with all your cupboards, your, your hubs, your fridge, your sink, your microwave oven, the double bed, the en suite, all the usual sort of what you'd expect in a, in a very large studio. And then on the other side of the property, which is the, the front, we created three large duplex apartments.

[00:42:44] Emma Estill: So two of these are, so you walk in both of the apartments downstairs, you have two bedrooms, one's got king-sized bed, one's got double, and you've got a bathroom. And then you go up the stairs into a huge open plan kitchen diner, and they both have bi-folds onto a rooftop terrace, which is just. They're really cool to look at, aren't they?

[00:43:03] Emma Estill: They're really, really cool. Then at the front of the building, we have a one bed, but we have a sofa bed downstairs. 'cause we rent all of these out on Airbnb and that one's flipped the other way because that doesn't have a rooftop terrace. So the bedroom and the en suite is on the top and downstairs is a large kitchen.

[00:43:18] Emma Estill: So now out of that business, I think we, yeah, we bought it, I can't remember the exact, but I think we bought it for like three 50 grand or something. And then it was valued at just over 1.5 million. The studios now are, they rent out for around a thousand pounds a month for each studio. So I think they, they go for between around 9, 7, 5 is the average.

[00:43:39] Emma Estill: Some of 'em are a little bit more, some of 'em a little bit less, but around 9, 7, 5 a month, and that's fully furnished on inclusive, so that's. 10 of those. And then our apartments at the front of the building are service accommodation, so they typically operate around 80% each month. Some months is better, some months is lower.

[00:43:56] Emma Estill: The nature of what of when it is. But they do perform really well for us. And yeah, it's been one of our most favorite project. 'cause the design, 'cause it was a nightclub. We wanted to kind of give, keep that nightclub fun element alive. So at the time we went for a bit of a beach club vibe. So there's lots of bright colors on the wallpaper.

[00:44:15] Emma Estill: There's like palm trees, there's like purple sofas, and it's just a bit of a quirky take on your typical average sort of apartment. And yeah, it is been one of our greatest project obviously because of the figures on it, it was all money out and now it, it just performs really well. Our, our studios. It's one in, one out.

[00:44:34] Emma Estill: People don't often move. We've got really good retention on our tenants. And typically speaking, someone will, will hand in their notice if they, most people will like move for work or they'll go and buy a house. 'cause that's, we only deal with professionals. So typically we like to think about ourselves as their last stop before they buy a house.

[00:44:53] Emma Estill: Or maybe they might move jobs. So we don't get that high turnover. But when we do. We'll do a viewing day while the tenant's still in situ. They move out, get it clean, and the next person's in. So yeah, it's been our greatest project from a position in our brand as sort of a bit of a market leader of commercial, but also financially as well.

[00:45:10] Andy Graham: Well, like I said to all our listeners today, go and check this project out. I'm looking at the photos now and it's very, very difficult to do. Just how incredible this is justice. It is completely unique, and just the numbers high level. Am I right in thinking, Emma, that this nets in the region of about 12,000 pound a month, this scheme?

[00:45:31] Emma Estill: Sometimes more. Yeah, that's net Obviously we've got like, obviously mortgage cost isn't, isn't cheap and stuff on it, but we did, luckily we did mortgage. We did a 10 year fixed rate before COVID and before the rates hike. So we have actually got quite a good mortgage rate on as well as well. But yeah, at least sort of year, year, 12K, net month.

[00:45:48] Andy Graham: It's an incredible project. Emma, it's been an absolute pleasure to catch up with you, a real blast. As always, you're a powerhouse of. Information and an experience and interesting stories, and it's so, so great to just get such an honest and transparent, unfiltered share from you about what this really, really takes.

[00:46:08] Emma Estill: Uh, it's been my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I feel like we could have talked for hours. 

[00:46:12] Andy Graham: I’m sure we could, and there's so much more that we haven't even touched on yet. But Emma, for anyone who has listened to today's podcast and wants to find out a little bit more about you, about stylish living, about what you're up to, the projects that you've done, how they might be able to get involved. Where's the best place to go?

[00:46:25] Emma Estill: At the moment it's Instagram because we have a new website in development, but if you go to Instagram, it's at underscore stylish living. That's the best place to get Cole Hold of me. And then, yeah, we'll be launching our new website in a clear view of all our services over the next couple of months,

[00:46:41] Andy Graham: and some projects that are ongoing at the minute, Emma, that we can keep up to date with. Right.

[00:46:45] Emma Estill: Yes, some exciting ones. So at the moment we are, one thing we didn't get to discuss, but we are currently doing a new build development. We've partnered with the Charity Mind, who are the UK's largest mental health charity, and we are building them a 26 all studio HMO, from the ground up. So I'm currently recording a YouTube series on that, and it's gonna be really exciting.

[00:47:07] Emma Estill: We're gonna launch our YouTube channel and do a bit of a behind the series, sorry, behind the scenes series of everything we've done. And the first. Series is going to be about this mind project. We've been recording lots of content from the start. It's nearly 12 months in. I think for anyone wanting to get into commercial property development and learning what we do.

[00:47:23] Emma Estill: That's hopefully, it'll be really insightful. 'cause like you said, Andy, I like to try and be as transparent and as open as possible. 'cause that's how I learned from people. So I'm just repaying the favor. And then personally, we have a new build site, which is either gonna be five houses or a block or 12 apartments.

[00:47:39] Emma Estill: We're just in legals for a large commercial development. That's gonna be an 18 bed HMO. And more excitingly, we're actually building our own home. So we've just got planning permission on our own home. So that's gonna be on its own Instagram account. It's at Stylish Living Home, and that's gonna be our first.

[00:47:56] Emma Estill: It's our family home. So we've bought a three bed cottage in the countryside that we've just got planning to convert into a five bed house. So there's gonna be a pool jacuzzi. I'm going big on this one 'cause we're actually gonna live there. So you're looking for any home inspiration as well as commercial?

[00:48:10] Andy Graham: Well, yeah, I think, I'm just looking for an invitation, Emma, so.

[00:48:12] Emma Estill: Oh, absolutely. It's any amount of time before pool parties was a thing, wasn't it? IB for Feel back to Leicestershire.

[00:48:20] Andy Graham: Plenty. Plenty for us all to keep up to speed with there. I'm sure. Emma, thank you again. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[00:48:25] Emma Estill: Uh, thank you Andy. Take care. Speak soon.

[00:48:34] Andy Graham: That is it for today's episode guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. I do hope you enjoyed that conversation with myself. Emma just goes to show you, doesn't it? How much can be achieved if you're prepared to commit to sacrifice, if you're determined, if you are prepared to persist, if you have got the grit, if you've got what it takes.

[00:48:51] Andy Graham: It's not easy this game, but Emma, I think is a great example of what can be done and a really inspirational example. And look, if you've been.

[00:48:59] Andy Graham: Listening in today and thinking that you wanna do the same. If you wanna build your own portfolio, if you wanna scale things up, if you wanna build a successful property business, then heading over to thehmoroadmap.co uk, it is a great place to get started. Or if you've already got started, to start scaling up everything you could possibly need.

[00:49:21] Andy Graham: The resources, the templates, the tools, the lessons, the videos. Everything that you could possibly need to build a HMO property business is waiting for you inside there. And of course, Emma's incredible case study with all of the detail, the floor plans, the before and after, all of the numbers. It's all waiting for you inside the HMO roadmap.

[00:49:40] Andy Graham: Thanks again for tuning in guys, and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.