Base Rate Reduction, HMO Lending & Why Your Rooms Might Take Longer to Fill – with Ellie Broadhurst

In this episode, I’m delighted to welcome back our trusted specialist mortgage broker — Ellie Broadhurst.

If you've been tuning in for a while, you'll already know that Ellie’s insight into the lending market is second to none. She's right at the coalface, working with lenders and investors every day, and she has an incredible ability to cut through the noise and explain what’s really going on.

Since our last conversation, the base rate has been reduced — something we anticipated might be on the horizon. So in this episode, we unpack what that change actually means. We’re talking mortgage products, swap rates, investor sentiment, market dynamics, and that all-important question: should you fix or track your mortgage?

As always, Ellie brings practical advice, real-world context, and her signature no-nonsense style. Whether you're refinancing, planning your next purchase, or just trying to stay ahead in a shifting market, this episode is packed with value.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 02:54 Base Rate Reduction and Market Reactions
• 06:02 Fixing vs. Tracking Mortgages
• 08:52 Current Market Dynamics and Business Volumes
• 12:02 Rental Market Trends and Tenant Behavior
• 14:48 Future Predictions and Economic Outlook

Contact Ellie here, if you’re interested in discussing your HMO mortgage and finance needs.

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.686)

Today, I'm really pleased to be welcoming back someone who's become the go-to voice for so many of us in the HMO community, Ellie Broadhurst. Now, if you've been following the show for a while, you'll know that Ellie's insight into the lending market is second to none. She's right at the coal face working with lenders, with investors every single day. And Ellie's got a fantastic way of cutting through the noise to help us make sense of what's actually happening. We've just had a base rate reduction, something that we talked about the possibility of in our last catch up. And in today's episode, we dig into what that really means. Not just for mortgage products and swap rates, for investor sentiment, mental market dynamics, and those big decisions around whether or not to fix or track your mortgage. Now, as always, Ellie brings loads of practical wisdom, real world context, and a no-nonsense approach. If you're refinancing, thinking about buying, or just trying to stay ahead of the curve in this ever-changing market, then today's episode is definitely one for you. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future. We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMORoadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:50.99)

Hi Ellie, welcome back onto the show.

Ellie Broadhurst: Good to be back as always.

Andy Graham: We've had a base rate reduction and I think I want to start there today. I want to know what you think about this. And I suppose what the markets are thinking about this and what lenders think about this. It was interesting because I think in our last catch up, things in the UK looked like they were potentially going to be quite stable. And then Trump started all of his sort of noise with the tariffs and everything started to wobble a little bit. Things have potentially changed a little bit there, although not completely, but nevertheless there has been a base rate reduction. So where are we at today? And can you give us your thoughts on that? The split, I think, the votes was interesting. Yeah. And the way that the markets and lenders have reacted. That was interesting.

Ellie Broadhurst (03:38.862)

So yeah, it was an interesting one because we've got a couple of people wanting to reduce it by half a percent and then a couple of people wanting to keep it as it was. It was a very split decision. So it'd be interesting to see what happens like next month off the back of that and whether people change their mind. But yeah, but just before the meeting, lenders were starting to reduce rates. We saw it as normally the high street lenders that come out first. So the lots of Barclays and Nationwide are normally first and they were starting to reduce it before Thursday's meeting.

And then yeah, we've seen some reductions, not low and not by a huge amount, but we are starting to see things filter through, which is good news, really good news.

I think it was an interesting split of votes. And I think there was absolutely no doubt about it. The rate was coming down. It was pinned on. Everybody knew that. I think that there was still a couple of the MPC members that wanted to hold it. I think that that has actually had maybe more of an impact in terms of the, the outlook and swap rates than perhaps a lot of people have realized, because I think that that signal was really It's sort of saying that maybe rates aren't going to come down as quickly as we hoped and thought.

Ellie Broadhurst: Yeah, I think that's exactly it, isn't it? Because as you've got this balance between what was it, awful April that we had last month, didn't we, with everything going up council tax and there was an array of things, wasn't there, that had gone up in April. Then we are going to see that inflation impact starting from this month's inflation figures. Inflation was at 3% before awful April, so there's a potential for it to go up higher. That's, I think, a big consideration.

Ellie Broadhurst (05:16.974)

The ECB had reduced the base rate a few weeks beforehand. I think, as you say, it was already priced in with markets. Everyone sort of knew it was coming, but was it more of a, we'll give you half a percent and you need to be happy with that, or is it the start of something to come? I probably am erring on the side of you can have a quarter of a percent to keep everyone happy. Will it come down further? I don't know. I mean, as you say, things have settled down that more worldwide. We've had Trump agreeing, trade agreements, haven't it, with China, with the UK. So things are starting to steady, but there's still a whole lot worse than where we were prior to him bringing all these tariffs in. So although it's good news in terms of settling the market, is it good news in terms of trade? Probably still not.

Andy Graham: We'll come onto this, I want to talk to you about the general feeling and sentiment in the market at the minute. Obviously you're very close to the coalface in terms of actually handling a lot of the transactions and you could have got all of that insight as an investor, as a landlord, the rental market and stuff that I'm looking at buying. I've got my own thoughts on stuff and what I'm seeing at the minute, but in the context of those rate reductions, I also want to have a chat to you later on today about what things look like out there in the market at the minute and what the rest of the year could potentially look like. 

But before we get there, there was a really interesting question asked by one of our members in the community the other day that you weighed in on. The question, and I thought it was a great question actually, was whether or not to fix or track at the minute. And of course, a while ago, we were all asking that sort of question when rates were high. Now we're sort of asking it for a different reason. Can you tell us about I suppose that thread, the different opinions that people had, what your opinion was and your general advice was. And obviously the caveat being that everybody's circumstances are different.

Ellie Broadhurst (07:05.07)

Of course. Yeah. And it's always best to switch your broker. yeah, I mean, with my regulated mortgage hat on in a previous life, when I was looking at client circumstances, we weren't really ever thinking about trying to chase rates. That wasn't really the prime sort of driver for whether to decide whether to have a shorter or longer term fix, whether to track. It was more about life circumstances. And obviously with residential mortgages is different.

How long you going to stay there? Change in income, kids, marriage, all those sorts of things, retirement, all those things that you are coming to play with, which it doesn't necessarily with investment. you've still got things like how long are you looking to keep the property? Are you going to be able to refinance and pull money out in a two-year period or do you need to leave it more of a longer period if you're looking at investment values on HMOs? It's unlikely that you're going to be able to pull that money out again. Could property prices come down? If you're looking to refinance in two years time, could that be touching your problem, they're all the kind of questions I would be asking rather than chasing interest rates. 

I don't think you generally do well chasing interest rates. The other thing is that it's so expensive to remortgage. You're looking at least a 2 % or age-wise, sorry, you're looking at legals, broker fees on there. So every time you come to do that, there is a big outlay and time. And the more properties that you have, the more often you're going to be remortgaging and the more time you've got to put into it.

They're all the things to consider before you even start thinking about, am I going to chase a rate? Looking at interest rates, variable rates, I was having a look this morning are roughly one and a half to 2% above fixed rates as a very general rule. Obviously it depends on what lender. With trackers, you're normally looking at either a NOAA ERC lifetime tracker, which is even more expensive.

Or you tend to be on a two year tracker and still at the end of that two year tracker rate, you'll go back onto the lender standard variable, which will be more expensive. So it tends to be a more shorter term option or quite an expensive option. And then you've got to think about is your rental enough? Is your rental going to cover it? Because you're looking at a stress test of maybe eight, nine percent rather than five or six. So there's all those things to go into the mix. Really what you've got to think about is do you genuinely think that the base rate is going to come down by?

Ellie Broadhurst (09:22.094)

more than that one or 2 % that you're paying on top of your fixed rate because over a period of time, you need to average it out at 2 % below where you are now, don't you? So do you think that's going to happen? And then when you factor in your fees of refinancing potentially in two years time, that's something to consider as well. So, I mean, it sounds like I don't think very well, right? It's good idea.

Andy Graham: Well, it's interesting because there's actually so much to think about and consider if you are currently refinancing or buying anything and need a mortgage. I mean, for what it's worth, my thoughts and what I'm doing at the minute is I'm definitely fixing. I suppose in some ways taking a risk on my cashflow isn't something that I generally liked to do.

Ellie Broadhurst: Yeah, absolutely. That's the other thing because with the people that are in charge around the world at the moment, know, naming their names, there's a lot of uncertainty that could potentially happen again. And yes, we can say, well, interest rates are generally higher. We'd like to see it think that it's on a kind of downward trajectory. There's no guarantees with that. So do you want to risk that? And that's really what it comes down to. And that's why most people do fix their mortgages because even though they may gain from it, the certainty of knowing what the payments are are more important than the potential of the game that you might get in the future.

Andy Graham: I think predictability is one of the best things about being a landlord, especially in the HMO space. If you've got good tenants who stay and pay, it's a fantastic business model. You've got just that recurring income that's very stable, very predictable, and you can plan off that. If things change and you're subject to interest rate changes because you're on a variable rate, that's not the case. And that could potentially make it more difficult to plan. And certainly it does just add an element of risk that you need to think about.

Andy Graham (11:08.398)

You certainly would have to think more so about having some sort of a cushion in case interest rates for any reason spike. And that's not something I really like to do. It's not really where I want to be paying my attention. I would much rather be putting my attention and focus onto shaving costs on refurbs and projects, trying to get the best possible value when I'm buying something, taking risks in other areas where actually I feel like I might have a bit more control on methods of mitigating that risk. 

So for example, how and what we develop is a really good example. But for me, I think still at the minute for the reasons that you mentioned around fees and the actual costs of switching mortgages and because of the lack of predictability for me, I'm definitely still fixing. And actually I think for pretty mainstream stuff at the minute, for example, my buy-to-lets, the rates are not anywhere near as bad as they were.

Don't get me wrong, it still comes with a bit of a sting and we're still nowhere near where we were. Stress testing on HMOs as we know is much easier. And why put yourself into a position where you're having to have those sorts of conversations and maybe not get the loan to values that you want or need because you're just really trying to push it on a rate. It just doesn't make sense to me. For me, I'm still fixing. I am hopeful that rates, and I do still think rates will come down this year. I think odds are that they will perhaps not as quick as we think. I don't think we're going to see anything exceptional in that case, but I do think they'll trickle down. I'm just fixing it for five years at the minute and I'm going to keep doing that until I see anything that really kind of changes my opinion.

Ellie Broadhurst: I on the whole agree, obviously this isn't mortgage advice, but yeah, on the whole, agree. think the five-year fix really needs to be the default. Then if there's a particular reason why you don't want that, then fair enough, go for something else. I think that needs to be the point that you're moving from because you pay a 3% arrangement fee over five years, it's 0.6. You pay a 3 % arrangement fee over two years, you're adding 1.5 % to your loan, aren't you? When you take all those factors into account,

Ellie Broadhurst (13:12.994)

You've got to be looking at a base rate that's significantly lower than where we are now to justify those costs and to make that that. And when you think, even when base rate was at 0.1, I think the interest rates off the top of my head, can't remember exactly, but we're around the three and a half, three, three and a half percent figure. So with the likes of Fleet and Landay now you're looking at just under 5%. So we're not that far off, even if the base rate comes down by a percent, how much of that is going to be passed on? Probably half of it at most. So we're not looking at big numbers, are we? No, it's small.

Andy Graham: Let's talk about business volumes then. I think that the market is a peculiar place at the minute in a really strange way. Looking back at the last few years, despite all of the turbulence and problems we've had, it has not been a buyer's market. It's definitely remained a seller's market, but things seem to be a little bit different. And obviously we had a big rush before the April deadline didn't we with stamp duty, peak in sales volumes. But it doesn't feel like that momentum has carried through into May as well. But what are you seeing and feeling, Ellie, on the other side? What are the lenders experiencing?

Ellie Broadhurst: Yeah, I think we are definitely seeing a drop. The lenders that I'm talking to, the brokers that I'm speaking to, the business volumes have definitely dropped. It's been like a slow decline, I would say, with new enquiries. We have had such a busy few months with completions, but that's things that have obviously been in the system for two or three months now. New enquiries wise, May has been quieter. It's a difficult one because Easter always tends to be quiet. Me and Jackie was joking because I have this panic every Easter that where's all the enquiries gone?

Ellie Broadhurst (14:48.642)

And she's like, it happens every year, everyone takes holiday. You know, you can have a few days off and get two weeks off, can't you? Kids are all off and everything. Lots of bank holidays, sun shining. I think that does mean that people take a little bit of a break. And particularly where, like you say, we've had the stamp duty deadline, it was so busy in the run up to that, you know, sort of from November to February, it was chaos. And you can't really continue as a brokerage, we cannot continue on those business volumes like constantly would all be burnt out. So we do need to have a bit of a break. 

I am seeing lenders are starting to do things like free legals. We've got a few cash back options. Shorebrook have got a special edition rate that we're able to access as strategic partners, which has got a minimum loan of 250. And I've actually got a few through at like 225, 230. So they're obviously trying to get that business through. They want those extra deals. So yeah, it's definitely quietened down. So is that more of a buyer's market? I suppose.

People still need to sell, you know, it may not be an ideal time, but there's still plenty of people out there that need to buy. And I suppose the types of clients that we get where you're looking to buy property to do works to it, they tend to be a need to sell rather than a want to sell scenario. So yeah, you're still going to need those things. It's trying to find that price point and maybe that's the thing that's slowing things down a little bit, bit of market readjustment after the stamp duty change.

Andy Graham: I definitely found that the market has softened a little bit from a rental perspective. The rents that were climbing, so double digits, that's definitely slowed. would say that rents at the minute are pretty flat. Certainly most of my stuff, we're not putting it up anymore. We're holding it. We're not reducing it, but I would say that that's definitely what we're experiencing. Volume of enquiries is just down.

Ellie Broadhurst (16:34.424)

Why do you think that is then from a rental point of view?

Andy Graham: I think that the cost of living issues that we've been talking about for a long time off the back of inflation, I think we're now seeing that it's actually impacting people in terms of what they can actually do on a day-to-day basis. And that forces people to reassess their decisions. What's more important? Is it paying an extra one or 200 pounds on their rent or actually is that something that they're prepared to compromise on? Will they compromise on perhaps living in a different location?

Live in something that's of a similar spec, but maybe the location isn't quite as good. So I think those sorts of things are definitely creeping through. I think also as homeowners, as households, think as sort of wage increases kind of slowed and the of the heats come out of that. All you need to do is go down to the supermarket and you just look across the shelf and that impact of inflation is now so apparent. You can't walk out of the supermarket without really spending a hundred quid these days and you haven't got a week's worth of shopping for that at all.

I think there's a combination of all of that stuff, plus then the additional tax disadvantages that were brought in earlier this year and a little bit of uncertainty just in the wider sort of global and economic space. I think there's a lot of headlines.

Ellie Broadhurst: You think people just aren't moving then or they're finding cheaper places to move to.

Andy Graham (17:56.802)

I think some people are just not moving and they're probably prioritizing home improvements over moving or maybe not doing anything. I think that some people are still moving and some people still need to move, but they are more budget conscious and they're compromising more on things that a year or two ago they may not have felt like they needed to. People, I think, and our tenants are genuinely not able to afford some of the niceties in life that they were able to afford a couple of years ago.

And it just forces people to rethink. Same for homeowners, same for households. So I think there's a lot behind this, but I think that it is all sort of steering towards a bit of a slowdown in the market. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting at all that the market is significantly dropping or crashing. I just think that the growth that we've been experiencing has definitely slowed. And I think that it is turning into a bit more of a tenants market and a bit more of a buyer's market.

Great if you're a buyer and you're in the market to buy something at the minute, it's looking better now to buy something that has done for a few years. Not great if you're a seller. I'm both.

Ellir Broadhurst: I think that always takes a time to adjust. I remember when we had the last stamp duty changes, when we had the stamp duty holiday in COVID, then when that stopped, it all slowed down because for a period of time, you've got buyers saying, I've got X amount extra to pay in stamp duty on this property. And you've got the seller expecting to still get the price that they would have done with the previous stamp duty rules. And there is always going to be a bit of a movement in there, isn't there? I think sometimes it, every time there's a change, there's a bit of time then for people to catch up with where they need to be and make those adjustments.

Andy Graham (19:36.728)

So we're recording today, it's mid-May, early to mid-May. The next Bank of England meeting is on the 19th of June. We're at 4.25% today. Would you like to hazard a guess? Stick your neck out, Ellie. Where do you think we'll be in June?

Ellie Broadhurst: So I think I'm sort torn between staying the same and maybe a 0.25 reduction. And I think that will depend on what the inflation figures come out as. I think this would be the end of the month, wouldn't it? It's already the last week of the month. I think if inflation stays the same or drops, but I don't know how that would do, I think we'll probably see another reduction. But I think if there's any increase above 3% on inflation, I think we'll have to stay the same. I can't see how they could bring it down.

Andy Graham: I'm going to say 0.25 % drop. I think we're to be at 4 % in June and you know, I'm still on for 3.5 % by the end of the year.

Ellie Broadhurst (20:33.646)

When I spoke to the Bank of England, which was, is it this time last year, no, it was two years ago, I think, before all of the chaos that we've seen in the last two years. And they said that by the end of 2025, we'd be down to between three and 3.75. So we're not actually that far off, are we? And the downward trajectory is there potentially, but I think it's going to really depend on inflation figures. It's going to depend on what happens with these trading deals. You know, there's so many things that are going into the mix.

It’s so hard. I would love to see a reduction and I think that's probably what the market needs to pick it up. Otherwise, I think we are going to have a much slower year than last year. But then we're just doing our end of year accounts and we've had a 20% increase in our turnover this year than last year. So that's a huge increase in numbers. I think some of that has been driven by more expensive property prices. That may have an impact, but I think a lot of that is far more deals that we've got coming in. Again, can you sustain that long term? Can the market sustain that long term? I think this year will be slower than last year.

Andy Graham: Yeah. I think underlying the impact of interest rates is the very fact that it simply just costs businesses more to operate and produce the same goods or services. And that when interest rates are high, that makes it difficult for them. And that slows the economy, that reduces growth and GDP. And the government know that they need to help businesses at the minute. It is quite difficult as a business owner, generally speaking, at the minute, the new tax changes really haven't helped. But I think we are precariously close to making it very, very difficult and really kind of slowing the economy too much. So I think there will be a strong incentive to make sure that that doesn't happen. I think we've absolutely got to hope that the world's leaders press the red button.

Ellie Broadhurst (22:17.518)

I've been this game over.

Andy Graham: This brings us back to, we still don't quite know. I said last time we caught up that other than the tariff troubles, that things were looking quite stable and predictable. I would say that they're looking more stable and predictable today than they were then, which is good news overall. I would say I'm feeling a bit more positive than I was this time, last time.

Ellie Broadhurst: Yeah, I agree. And I think as much as we can say that Trump is causing some sort of chaos and what have you, they've got the same problems in America as we have worldwide, with the cost of living and inflation going up. And you've got to get to a point, you've got to get GDP up because unless you're growing as an economy, then you've got a problem, haven't you? There's loads of other things that will cause a fallout from that. So that is key. And I know that we've had issues this year and the way the Chancellor's brought in new rules, which aren't helpful for that. But then there is some stuff that's sitting behind that. Hopefully in time, things will be able to be changed and improved. But yeah, it's still a difficult time, isn't it? 

I was reading something the other day to say, are we the unluckiest generation? And I was thinking, well, we haven't had any major wars to deal with ourselves. But still it has seemed like we've had Brexit, we've had COVID, haven't we? We've had loads of things off the back of that, various wars that have caused problems and people in charge of countries causing mayhem. There's been quite a lot of uncertainty over the last 10 years.

Andy Graham (23:42.958)

Well, Ellie, it's been great to catch up as usual. I think my sort of parting advice to our listeners today would be focus on the basics, focus on buying well and adding value. I think that you provide a good service to your tenants, get tenants that stay and pay. There's far more value in that and keeping your occupancy high than there is trying to push the rents to absolute maximum, on empty roofs, facing interest rates. Stick to the basics. I think things are looking better at the minute. They are looking a bit more predictable.

Ellie Broadhurst: Totally agree.

Andy Graham (24:11.33)

But I certainly don't think it's the time to be cavalier or set any expectations are too high in terms of where anything could go at the minute. Because if the last few years have taught us anything at all, it is really not to kind of hang your hat on anything. You just, you still don't know.

Ellie Broadhurst: Totally. Yeah. I think it's really sensible. I think with things like if you're doing builds, think about sensible builds. You say about keeping good quality tenants in there. I think the other thing to think about is keeping your room sizes big. Don't try and squeeze in eight tenants when actually it should be a six bed HMO, about having small rooms means a much higher turnover with tenants. But also it means you're going through the planning process. There's extra stress involved. There's probably a bigger build cost. You're trying to keep things simple and replicating it and having three or four HMOs in your portfolio rather than one or two is going to get you a better cash flow.

Andy Graham: Absolutely. Thanks again. For everyone listening today. If you have got a refinance coming up, if you are buying something and don't quite know what you should be looking at in terms of mortgages and the lending options out there, Ellie is our expert. So just head over to thehmoroadmap.co.uk. You'll see a page for services and mortgages and finance, and you can drop an enquiry with Ellie and she'll get straight back to you. Ellie is incredibly helpful on so many occasions.

Also Ellie, you're able to sort of give a bit of a steer and values and share your honest and impartial advice. When people are setting those expectations and end values and trying to line that up with the right products, I know that you have a lot of our clients that try and put that together with the right products as well.

Ellie Broadhurst (25:45.08)

Totally. Yeah. Just making sure the whole thing fits together. Yeah.

Andy Graham: Absolutely. Well, I guess Ellie, that means you and I will convene in June and we'll see where they are.

Ellie Broadhurst: If our predictions were correct. Thank you, Andy.

Andy Graham (26:06.286)

That is it for today's episode guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with myself and Ellie. Hope you found it useful. I'm sure you did, especially as an investor who's possibly using private finance. Lots of really important stuff in there. Lots of stuff we all need to pay attention to. And remember, Ellie sits on the other side of the fence every single day. Ellie is talking to the banks. She's talking to underwriters. She knows exactly what these guys need. So just make sure you get this stuff right because it is incredibly important. 

Now, if you are scaling up a HMO property business, then make sure you check out theHMOroadmap.co.uk. That is, course, where you'll find everything you need to start, scale and systemise, including over 70, maybe 80 case studies, incredible case studies from our community members with photos. We've got floor plans, 3D videos, all the financials, huge amounts of detail on huge numbers of projects up and down the country from small to big HMOs, from student to professional and everything in between. 

Of course, we've got dozens of masterclasses, over 70 videos walking you step by step through the process of how to actually buy, refurbish, refinance, fill your properties with tenants and manage them and a whole lot more, including of course, the Deal Stacker powered by AI, a really intuitive tool to help you stack deals quickly and accurately plus and get your hands on all of my downloadable resources and templates. And of course, if you're just looking for a bit more support and guidance, check out the HMO Community. That's our free group on Facebook with over 10,000 members. Now, it really is an incredible resource, great place to find all of the advice and support that you need from people doing exactly what you want to be doing. 

That's it, guys. Thank you again for tuning in. And don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.