Beyond HMOs: I Get Real About Building Wealth, Health and Family

I’m sharing a recent conversation I had as a guest on The BEESPACE Podcast, hosted by my good friend Jade McNeil.

Jade and I covered a wide range of topics—not just HMOs and property—but also the bigger-picture stuff: balancing life and business, navigating challenges, and the personal shifts that come with experiences like becoming a parent or facing health scares.

It’s a really open and honest chat. If you're running a business, managing a property portfolio, or simply trying to keep up with everything life throws at you, I think you’ll find this episode both relatable and insightful.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 09:02 - Career Transition From Physiotherapy to Property
• 21:05 - Building Arcvelop Investor Group
• 27:57 - Navigating the Challenges of Property Development
• 31:09 - Building Credibility Through Consistency
• 33:45 - Creating The HMO Community and The HMO Roadmap
• 39:17 - Navigating Social Media Challenges
• 47:09 - The Impact of Fatherhood on Business

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.718)

Today's episode is a little bit different because I'm sharing a conversation I recently had when I was invited onto the BeeSpace podcast by my good friend, Jade McNeil. Jade and I talked about loads of things, not just HMOs and property, but the bigger topics in life and business, balancing life and business. Things that have changed my perspective on what really matters, like becoming a dad and health challenges. I think it's a really open and honest conversation. I think if you're running a business and a portfolio like Jade and I, and just trying to juggle everything that life and business has got to throw at you, well, I think today's episode will be both interesting and relatable. Please sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

Hey guys, it’s Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Jade McNeil (02:31.646)

Welcome back to the BeeSpace podcast. Now this is the second part to my special birthday episodes. So, when I was sat there thinking who could be my second guest to come and celebrate my podcast turning one, there was of course only one guy on the list. Hello, Andy Graham.

Andy Graham:

Hello Jade, thank you so much for inviting me onto the BeeSpace podcast. It's really great to be here.

Jade McNeil: Yeah, it's amazing to have you. So for those of you that may know, may not know, I've spent many, many hours with Andy over the years as was lucky enough to host our mastermind program together for about three and a half years in Sheffield, which was the business and property mastermind. So we know each other really well, don't we? To be fair.

Andy Graham: We do, and we know each other's businesses really, really well as well. know, over time, that sort of stuff rubs off, doesn't it? Yeah.

Jade McNeil: And we always had a good banter at Mastermind because I think me and you are a little bit like Ying Yang really, aren't we? Like I'm the nice, happy, creative one and you're like the ruthless, cold hearted.

Andy Graham (03:33.654)

Unlike the guy from that, that kind of series is like the apprentice or I can't remember what it was called, but yeah, we have got a very different approach to business. I think that that's fair to say. And actually quite a different approach to how we invest in property as well. But it's not that either was do it right or wrong. It's just that we do it in a different way. And I think what we found, certainly what I found was that that combination of our experience and approach to things was a really interesting combination. And we were able to provide a lot of people, a lot of value in sharing that with them. yeah, I miss our mastermind. miss hanging out with you every month as well.

Jade McNeil: Yeah, it was like a transitional period of grief for me this year. was like, I don't get to see Andy every month.

Andy Graham: Well, I'm not sure Gemma feels the same. She's down on maternity leave and she's in the house, you know, and I'm here every day and she's just kind of probably sick of me.

Jade McNeil: So, I mean, so we've been sort of did the mastermind together, been online pals for probably a year or two prior to that. So I think it's fair to say that we've both been around in each other's lives. We've both gone through a lot of changes personally and in business as well. And obviously like you alluded to there, you've become a father as well this year.

Andy Graham (04:39.862)

Yeah. I'm a new dad and we're new parents. And as we're sitting here and recording this, our little girl is just under 10 weeks old and it's been a really incredible 10 weeks. As you'll know, you've got a couple of kids, haven't you Jade? Those first few weeks, you're just sort of figuring it all out, just trying to survive. And we have done it. And we're here and she's beautiful and we're absolutely loving it. And we're just adapting to our new life as a family of three. But wow, does it like, does it put everything else into perspective and like.

At times this thing that used to exist in my life and now it's just like this thing that I hear other people have and I'm like, God, where is all my time gone? Like before I know it, it's four or five o'clock. Where? It's just like a sim. Life is just a sim. Time just like disappears through it.

Jade McNeil: The thing is as well, like with you, and I always just say this to you, like you've, I know you've got a lot going on now, like today, we're going to jump into what the business portfolio looks like now, but you really built the solid foundations of that before having kids, before getting married, didn't you? And I've always looked at people that done that and been like, cause for me, I've done it whilst the baby's literally hanging off me. And it's just made it so difficult times I've looked at people who do have that flexibility of having their own schedule and I'm like, I'm so envious that you can get stuff done because I can't.

Andy Graham: Time is, when I sit with people that I mentor, one of the things that we often look at quite candidly is the resources, the resources that we all have, the resources that we don't have. I'm yet to meet anyone who's got everything that you need to build a really successful business in abundance. And time is one of those things that is so often undervalued in the sort of the sense of what it can enable you to do. And there is a huge advantage when you don't have dependents. You've got more time, you can.

Andy Graham (06:28.012)

get up early and do those extra hours. You can work late and do those extra hours. You can do the weekends. You can sit for 12 hours a day. And it is different when you've got kids and responsibilities. And for me, it was a really conscious decision. And Gemma, you know, she's got a great career herself. We wanted to get to a certain point before we lost some of that flexibility. And there was also things just on a personal level, well outside of business. And to be honest, the business stuff and work is sort of we can do the stuff, but we wanted to travel and we wanted to enjoy life and we wanted to do other things, but the way that we've done it has worked really well for us so far anyway. 

And we'll, guess we'll just see how the near future goes and maybe we'll add to our family and maybe time will continue to disappear even more so. Then, you know, who knows where we'll end up, but yeah, we just kind of finding a new balance with everything, but really, really enjoying things now. 

Jade McNeil: And you know you're an adult now, right?

Andy Graham (07:24.056)

I mean, I can't believe that you can go into the hospital. You can have a baby and they just let you walk out as if all of a sudden you are responsible for a tiny person's life. And I am like, God, like I don't really know what to do. You guys know that I have no experience doing this, right? And yeah, it's a really, really crazy thing. I mean, what a great thing. And yeah, we feel incredibly blessed that Isla is well and she's healthy. And I think as far as babies go, she's been a really good baby so far.

Jade McNeil: Good. Well, long may that continue.

Andy Graham: Absolutely, from touching wood as I say that.

Jade McNeil: Otherwise you and Gemma will like wake up one day and be as old and wrinkly as me.

Andy Graham: I'm getting there. I am 40 next year. So trust me, I've started, I finally know the literature, the stuff that I'm reading has taken a bit of like a different path. I find myself now like looking at how to stave off things like Alzheimer's and what are the implications of high cholesterol. And I'm looking at like the croissant that I like, a pastry, you know, and I'm often thinking, hmm, you know, maybe I'm getting on for 40 now, you know, maybe it's time to actually cut back on some of the carbs and like get healthy before it's too late.

Jade McNeil (08:29.102)

It is a thing and I remember your birthday in December. I was like, is it your 40th? You were like, no.

Andy Graham: No, I was 38 in December and just gone, but I'm obviously 39 this year and then 40 next year. So I think about a lot of stuff with a very long time horizon. And as you know, and we'll probably talk about this today, I like to plan. I actually enjoy planning and I have found certainly from a personal perspective, the planning has allowed me to achieve much better results than what I was able to do when I was younger and I didn't plan. I just did not prioritise planning.

And you know, I take the same approach to life and the business as well in equal measures. So yeah, I try and kind of do that wherever I possibly can really, but it's now my priorities are starting to change as I do get a bit older and I've got slightly different responsibilities.

Jade McNeil: Absolutely. So let's jump into it then. So let's jump into kind of where you're at right now in terms of like your business portfolio. And I want to know where you are now, but to put a bit of context into the conversation, kind of where it all started from, because you were not born into a property development led family. It wasn't what you initially kind of did as a career. So kind of like, where are we at and how did it start?

Andy Graham: I think my story, it did begin on a building site. My uncle was a builder and he was a really incredible builder. And one of those builders that we see less and less often now, they're kind of real sort of jack of all trades, master craftsman, could turn his hand to the construction element, the joinery, you know, really understood the building trade inside out. And as things have changed over the last few decades, builders, we typically know them, have started to specialise more and more. And you see that when you're packaging projects up.

Andy Graham (10:05.238)

I spent time on the building sites with my uncle and I remember being quite young. My dad and my uncle were very close and they, through our childhood, my and my sisters, they did self-builds. They did three or four self-builds. My dad certainly wasn't a developer. My uncle wasn't a developer really, he was a builder, but they did a few developments for themselves. They were kind of smart enough to understand the benefits of leveraging the skills that Frank had. And I would spend time on the sites, you know, and playing around in the foundations. And I remember that quite vividly now.

Watching the brick layers. I think there was something there and I see that was so, and I just found this sort of interest in buildings and property. But as I got a bit older and I went off to university and things like that, I suppose my attention drifted to things that kind of other blokes enjoy more and football and sport and women. And, and I ended up on a fairly generic career path, I would say probably for lack of having any more clarity and having any sort of a plan when I was at school and college, I was pretty good at school. 

I got pretty good grades, but I didn't have to try particularly hard to get them. And I didn't give a huge amount of thought to what I wanted to do. So when it came to making that decision about a career at college and before university, I sort of went with what was a bit of an easy fit at that time. And I enjoyed my sports and I enjoyed sort of biology and I was thinking about maybe going in a medical direction, but I probably wasn't cut out to be a doctor. So I ended up being a physio.

And whilst I enjoyed a lot of what I did as a physio for several years as a professional in my career, it just did not engage me enough. It couldn't hold my attention. I found that it didn't test me. I like to think in long timeframes and I found it difficult to think beyond sort of five years in that career. I could get some promotions or I could specialise and I did do that, but there's only so far you can go. And I could see by the time I was going to be 30, I had a pretty much topped it out. The only place you could really go is maybe to a national team or a Premier League club and that wasn't really what I wanted to do. 

So I started to lean more and more into property. As soon as I finished university, I decided to buy a property because I'd been a student. I'd lived in accommodation as a student. I could see what that probably amounted to for my landlord. I thought, yeah, I want a bit of that. So I just quite naively had a go, bought my first property. I borrowed money from my dad to do that and

Andy Graham (12:26.924)

I mean, it's crazy lucky right now that he would have given me that. And I think that says it's a huge testament to him because he trusted me and also wanted to see me succeed. But there was a very good chance that that money was going to disappear and it was all going to come turn out pretty terribly. Unfortunately, it didn't. It sort of went okay. And at that time I was living in Cornwall. That's where I decided to take my first job as a physio. Did my first project, first HMO, turned it into a five bed. Everything was a little bit easier back then, I'll be honest. You didn't need the experience you need now. There wasn't as much scrutiny or stress testing. It was right at the bottom of the recession. I didn't really know much about what that meant at the time, but I think my naivety was actually one of my superpowers at the time. And it's really interesting because now I do plan a lot and I teach people to plan a lot and it's incredibly important, but there is this sort of like hidden sort of value in sometimes just not always knowing what might happen. 

Sometimes it's be pretty easy to convince yourself out of doing deals. So, you know, I was fortunate after that first deal did go okay. And over a few years it matured and I earned a nice income off it alongside my physio income. But I just sort of carried on just sort of bumbling through my early professional career. I did one or two more HMO deals and at about 26, which is just over 10 years ago now, I had to at the life changing event. I think you know about this, Jade, and I have talked about it on the podcast, but I wasn't feeling great and I won't label the story, but to cut it short, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer and I was incredibly fit. 

I was surfing all the time at that point in my life and this was just a huge shock. I couldn't believe it, not just for me, but for my family as well. And it coincided with me sort of really sort of getting to that point of frustration with my professional career, just not finding that I just wasn't content. It just was not fulfilling me.

And my symptoms initially had been boiled down to stress, but as it turned out, that wasn't necessarily the case. Actually, I did have thyroid cancer, although I probably was also stressed. And just before I was diagnosed, I decided to kind of pack the physio thing in for a period of time, at least, and go off to Canada to get out to the mountains, which is my most favorite thing to do in the world. I love to be out there in the mountains. So I ended up having treatment. I ended up getting out to Canada in the end, but that event was just

Andy Graham (14:51.19)

was so, it had such a big impact on me. It made me think completely different about everything, not just life. It made me think very differently about my career. And actually what I surmised from it is I'd taken some risks in my life to that point, and most of them had paid off quite well, fortunately, but there was definitely areas in my life, particularly in my career, where I hadn't really taken any risks. I'd taken a pretty low risk sort of route to being a physio and kind of so gradually specializing and I decided to kind of flip things on its head. When I'm out in the mountains, I love to go fast. I kind of love that. I like to go fast. I like to charge. I do like taking those sorts of risks. I'm a bit of an adrenaline junkie and I started to apply some of that to my own life and I came back from Canada completely refreshed and I decided to go after the business thing full time and that's exactly what I did. 

And it was hard because when I put the physio career down or certainly I wasn't doing it full time, a certain amount of my income dropped off and then it was difficult to lend and prices had been going up over the previous years. So immediately I kind of stumbled into the challenges of, well, how do you actually buy more property? This is actually going to be much more difficult than I had really anticipated. So I had to think quite different about stuff. And it was at that point that I realised I needed to build a business out of property. And I suppose that's when I went from trying to be a landlord and build a bit of a buy to let pull for you to actually building a proper property business. 

And I suppose the kind of the start of that phase of life was the start of my investment and management agency and everything sort of changed at that point really. I built an investment and management agency. We did some really interesting things. We raised huge amounts of money on one of Europe's biggest crowdfunding platforms and built a very good cash and income generating business that required much less capital than buying assets. So we were doing a lot of management. 

We were doing a lot of leasing, long-term leasing a bit like rent to rent. We were doing a lot of investment work for private clients that wanted to buy HMOs like I was doing for myself. I made a lot of money doing it. And I also found it was a great way to build my experience and my contact base. And a lot of things just sort of blossomed for me from there. And it opened the door to so many more opportunities. Those opportunities eventually became more opportunities to buy my own stuff, to generate more income. And gradually over time, I just continued.

Andy Graham (17:16.91)

doing that and steadily building my own portfolio, steadily building my business. And I exited that business a couple of years ago now. And since then that kind of opened the door for my next phase, which you touched on earlier. I've got my training and education business and the roadmap and the podcasts, which some of your listeners might know about and developing and taking my sort of property specific interest to a different place still, which was a personal challenge and also part of a much bigger and longer term plan to create a different type of wealth for myself. 

And that brings us to today, which is a combination of running my buy-to-let and HMO portfolio, developing for capital gain and also running my training and education business, which is a really good cash and income generating trading business.

Jade McNeil: So let's talk firstly about your development business now, the incredible ArcVelop. I'm always happy to share on social media. I've got a lot of clients, know, one-to-one mentoring clients and we talk about kind of self-comparison and looking at content, at making the content feeling bad and how you deal with that in that moment. And I work with a lot of people on that subject. However, when it comes to seeing the ArcVelop stuff come on Instagram, I'm like, yeah, that makes me feel terrible. It's so amazing. I'm so jealous. And then we'll be able to do those projects because they are insane what you guys are doing. So like, paint the picture for me. Like who's in it? What does it do? Where is it? What's the kind of objective with the business?

Andy Graham: Yeah. So AIG, Arcvelop Investor Group is a development company that myself and my two business partners set up. You obviously know both my business partners, Jade, one of them is Mike, Mike Clay and one of them is Mark Turnier. Now I, interestingly, just very briefly touching back on that experience of building my businesses and finding that other things blossomed, part of which was my network, the connections to people I had and opportunities. Mike and Mark were both people that I met through that process.

Andy Graham (19:09.654)

on my kind of my journey and sort of navigating the early property and investment. we clicked and I was, I think, intelligent enough to see how intelligent Mike was and how intelligent Mark was and also see the skills and experience that they had. Mark himself is an architect and I knew I wanted to develop, but I also knew that I was never going to make a good developer. I did not have the skillset and the experience to do the sorts of projects that I really wanted to. It was always clear to me that that type of business for me was going to be much better and much more successful if I could partner with the right people. And that's exactly what I did. 

And you know, I knew Mark and Mike for a number of years before we actually decided to do anything together. And of course we did a first project, sort of test the water, that went well, let's do some more. And I think that's a good way to start any partnership. We didn't really start with the plan that we have now, that plan has evolved. But in essence, we work together as a partnership to acquire size, primarily for conversion into residential accommodation. And we do that in different parts of the country because we're all based in different parts of the country. 

We do it in Kent and Southeast and in Norwich and East, and we do it in the North of England and stuff. We've currently got a site in Sheffield. And we harness all of our skills and share various responsibilities within the business. And we focus on acquiring those sites, getting them through planning, finding their funds to actually buy them and then develop them, bring them to fruition, tenant them and try and keep hold of as much as possible. And that short summary might make it sound like it's quite easy, but the reality is it's exceptionally difficult and there are a huge number of moving parts. 

So actually AIG is a really big and really important part of my, I suppose everything I do in business now. And it also gets a huge amount of my attention and focus because it commands it. And that business is not at a stage at the minute where any of us could just walk away for a number of months and just leave it and expect it to continue on the same trajectory. It really is quite dependent on us as kind of like founders at the minute. And that's going to be the case for the next few years. But the objective is just to build great buildings, create a lot of capital value, create really credible homes for people. And we want to do it our way. We're not prepared to compromise on the design and on the spec and on the location. You know, we've got a really particular product in mind.

Andy Graham (21:34.132)

And that's something that we're all really, really passionate about. And we're hoping to keep doing that for many years. And I guess, you know, time will tell whether or not we're able to do that. But certainly today that that's certainly the vision.

Jade McNeil: So the buildings that you're working on are significant, aren't they, in size? like a development, like planning up with it, you're gaining on these buildings. Like, just moving over to you on some of the projects at the minute, the life projects.

Andy Graham: Yeah, they are getting big and that has changed. actually that's not something that's happened accidentally. That's something that we really sat down as a business and looked at and we discussed and we proactively made a decision to change. We started with smaller projects and what we found was that it took us the same amount of time to do that project as it probably would have a project twice the size. But we actually had to deal with a contractor that was more befitting to a smaller project. 

They had less people on the payroll, they had less in terms of management infrastructure and all of those translated into challenges for us as a developer. Those sorts of gaps ultimately need to be filled and we found that we were often filling them. We also recognise that our strength is actually not in that element of managing contractors and sites and project management. That's not really what we want to be doing or even the best at. What we're really good at is acquiring and adding value through planning. 

We're really good at raising the finance and we're really good at making deals happen at the start and at the finish. And actually that's what we wanted to continue focusing on. So it's quite clear that if we wanted to keep a hold of things, that if we wanted to work with bigger and better contractors that made our lives a little bit easier, we actually needed to be looking at larger schemes. So we proactively started to do that. So we went from some 10 scheme developments to, for example, one that we're doing at the minute, which is more like 24 units in phase one and then another 13 to follow. So, so 37ish units, something like that.

Andy Graham (23:27.842)

That's a significantly bigger project, but ironically and arguably easier to run than a smaller project like 10, certainly for us. And that's, I think where we're really comfortable. We do schemes a little bit smaller than that. We do schemes a little bit bigger than that. And I think something else that we're quite clear on is that we want to develop in a ratio of about two to one conversion to new builds. So we don't particularly like new build. We prefer conversion. It's more straightforward. It's easier with planning. It's more predictable. 

And we don't really want to build up. We want to build laterally. It's easier to divide lateral buildings into blocks. It's easier to then aggregate the values, which allows you to maximise your ability to get out of the deal at the end and try and extract the best economics that you can for it. Building up also has other complications like you need certain misting systems for fire regulations. And then there's all sorts of things, obviously about cladding. So we have a really clear niche that we target and does every building fit into that?

Of course not, you know there's got to be some flexibility, but generally speaking, that's what we're trying to do. And the ultimate outcome is to build, like I said, those really well-designed residential accommodation units that people really want to live in that we're really proud to hold that generate a really good ongoing income that we can hold for a long time. We're planning to hold 10, 15 years as a minimum.

Jade McNeil: I mean, the thing is you talk about it and it just sounds like so, like almost quite straightforward to execute, but I'm probably guessing that projects those kinds of sizes in three different locations, lots of turning cogs, you must have had your challenges along the way.

Andy Graham: I mean, I'm really glad you said that because I actually wouldn't want to sit here and glamorise development. I've said quite open and honestly on my own channels, a number of times, I wouldn't develop even in partnership if I didn't have my other stuff going on in my own portfolio, my own businesses. Fortunately, my wife, Gemma, she's got her own really good career and that actually is really important. There's a huge amount of risk in developing. And one thing that really just reassured me, I'm used to the anti-landlord rhetoric. I've been doing this for 20 years now.

Andy Graham (25:32.266)

And I've heard everything that you can imagine from tenants and the parents of tenants and the daily mail trying to write stories and stuff. And the one thing that really frustrates me is not that stuff, because I know that there is a skewed opinion of housing in our country, but it is that developers shouldn't be allowed to profit from developing. And it is fundamentally because people do not understand the risks involved. We get paid for taking risk at the end of the day. And I think it is only right that if we are successful, we get paid.

Well for that risk, but that risk presents in so many ways and some of the ways that you might think and the obvious stuff like not getting the valuations you expect or bill program taking longer or costing more than you expect. But there are so many other things that, and I could just list just from the last few days and finding things underground that you don't want. Piling the ground and finding that your concrete's leaking and can tell you, you can spend a lot of money on concrete. You can spend thousands of pounds on concrete in a matter of hours that you just didn't necessarily plan or expect. 

People that want to start making claims and, you know, rights to light and things like that. There's a huge number of complications, the complexities of lending on larger buildings and blocks, relationships with banks, how values are determined, aggregate values, block values, stress testing. You might have really high value units, but what are the rents doing in relation to that? The exit scenarios, just search results. There's so much stuff that can present as problems and does honestly bring challenges every single day. 

And I think in a kind of sadistic way, I like the challenges. That was actually what I was yearning. That was what I didn't have in my professional career. It was quite prescriptive in the end as a physio. What I have now is a challenge or challenges every single day. And I love that and I thrive on that. And I like solving those problems. And I think that that gives me a huge amount of fulfillment. Of course, I want to make sure that we can always solve those problems. So we have to be exceptionally careful.

But developing is not for the faint hearted. It's also not to be done with a sort of one foot in, one foot out approach. You have to be fully focused on it at all times because the numbers can get pretty big and your risks and the liabilities and there's some pretty serious stuff there. So you've got to take it all really, really seriously. It's very different to just buying and refurbishing a HMO and hoping to get a good valuation at the end. So whilst it's incredible and I absolutely love that business.

Andy Graham (27:57.452)

I wouldn't want to sit here and it'd be unjust of me not to really kind of point out that it's not for everybody. And you've got to think very carefully about what you're going to do and how you're going to do it who you're going to do it with because it's going to take an awful lot to do it successfully.

Jade McNeil: Yeah, I think you might've just put me off there. So you kind of touched on it around the finance and I know you guys have raised a fair amount of money, haven't you, to put into the development business.

Andy Graham: We have, and you and I, this is something that we've talked about a lot. We've taught a lot of people on our own masterminds about this. I think there's two kind of really essential components to building any good property business. And one of them is your deal flow and your access to deals. And the other one is your access to finance. If you can bring those two together and, in equal measures, you've got the fundamental ingredients of something really, really successful. You've got to be able to keep that tap open and you've got to be able to understand how to recycle funds through deals, but the art of raising finance is so important in business and especially in property because it's so capital intensive. 

And I, from a very early age, so going back 20 years, understood that I had to borrow money to buy my first deal and I had to pay that money back to my dad. I borrowed money for subsequent deals. And if you can unlock it, if you can do that and you can do it successfully, it does give you the scope to do so much more in business. And I've really focused on doing that for a long, long time. And I think that I've done that in a number of different ways. Part of that has just been developing my personal relationships and my personal network. Part of that has been what I've done online, building online channels and communities, networking with people online. I've got a big community people around me that I've never met, but can reach out to. And that takes a long time to nurture. It doesn't happen overnight. I have, couldn't even begin to tell you how many meetings I've gone with prospective investors, many of whom

Andy Graham (29:46.718)

It hasn't been rightful. I've nurtured lots of relationships, some of which have only come to fruition 10, 15 years on from when we originally met. You know, I think that again, I go back to that time horizon that I'll often place and things. I'll have a conversation with someone today and I'm happy if we conclude that there's actually nothing that we can do right now, but I won't for a second believe that that might not change in the future. I'll continue to nurture that for a long time because it is those sorts of things that often further down the line will become fruitful.

A simple introduction to someone who's been following your journey, who may have not even worked with you themselves and makes an introduction to an important person, that can change everything. So I've really tried to nurture that stuff and I've tried to build authority and my profile. I have been really consciously careful of protecting my reputation. I think that's so important now. I think so many people overlook how valuable that is, not just today when they're doing something, but actually what one's opinion of that might be in the future as well. 

I'm not saying we're all perfect. Of course we're not. And I'm certainly not, but I am always thinking about this when I'm talking to people and I'm posting, when I'm presenting deals. No, I don't want to damage my reputation or credibility or anything like that at any point. I want to continue strengthening it, but it is a conscious activity Jade thatI think about every day, every week, every single month. 

And I continue to put work into it. It's really clear. I could probably even break down how much time I spend on, that exercise in terms of marketing, sending out emails, communicating with our community. You know, the podcast that I run is a really good example of putting out regular, consistent information. And I think it demonstrates a number of things, demonstrates a consistent approach to business. It's a great way to demonstrate credibility and authority on specialist subjects. It's a great way to let people know that you exist. There's so many different ways to do it, not just podcasts, but I really do prioritise it, have done for a long time and continue to do that.

Jade McNeil (31:49.13)

I think my kind of version of that, that I always say to people is I'm really conscious about every time I open my mouth and how I show up in a business capacity. Like there's not one like moment or second that passes where I'm not conscious about what I'm saying and the effect that it's going to have for my brand, for my business. So I think that's definitely one of the things for you and I that we have always aligned on and really saw the value of that for us. You touched on there about your online community. So I want to talk a little bit more about that. So obviously you've got the incredible HMO roadmap. So what is it?

Andy Graham: A way to describe, I think, that business of mine is it's like an ecosystem. It's this beautiful thing that's quite organic and it started as something that I made happen. I did the landscaping of it and I nurtured it and I planted the seeds, I watered it and I introduced a few people to it. And then over time it's grown into this really incredible community that supports itself. I'm a member of the community as much as I am the leader of the community and I love that about it. 

Someone can ask a question and there are so many other people there and on hand to answer that question, to give their experience and their opinion on how they might deal with it differently. And we've got nearly 10,000 people in the wider community now. That's just in our sort of online groups. Our channel reaches much further on other social channels as well. And that's our free community. And that was started without any intention for it to be anything other than a great place for me to network and build contacts and increase my opportunities to raise finance and potentially do deals. That was all it was ever meant to be. 

The opportunities evolved from that over time as it grew and became really successful. And when I was a little bit sort of bored in COVID and that's when I started my own podcast and that's when I built the roadmap and the roadmap was almost a step above that where the community is great because you've got lots of advice, but it's not structured. It's difficult if you want to go and find something in particular.

Andy Graham (33:45.998)

It's a great place to have a conversation and network and field opinions, but it's difficult to find structured learning. So the roadmap was my version of what I wish existed when I just got started. It's really hard for me. I was really naive, but nearly 20 years ago that you couldn't go on YouTube and watch a video about how to do HMO or listen to a podcast about investing in HMOs. It simply just did not exist. So you kind of just had to give it a go and hope it worked. 

Whereas now there's so much more available and I wanted to create something that was unbiased. I've got an opinion and a way of doing things. It's not necessarily the only way or the right way. Lots of people in our community do things very differently and it's incredible and they're really, really successful. So for me, creating a platform that was able to provide unbiased and a really sort of extensive collection of experience was incredibly important. It was also meant to go deep. You know, I'm a big fan of like, know, going, keeping it sort of an inch wide but going a mile deep on things.

I think it's easy at surface level to get things wrong and there's so much free information and content and education out there at the minute. Yeah, I think you've got to be extremely careful. In the roadmap, we go incredibly deep on all of the essential components of how to buy and refurbish and fill and refinance HMOs and everything in between. And we wanted to do it also in a digestible way that was on demand. So what we did at the time, or what I did was quite unique. 

We built a membership platform. Now there were some membership platforms, but when I built the roadmap and the HMO roadmap, there wasn't, you know, as far as I was aware, a single membership platform that exists in the property space. There's a few now, but we wanted to make something on demand. You could pay and stay as long as you want, and you could cancel the next day if it wasn't for you. I thought that was a fair way of extracting and offering value.

I've never been a believer in having to pay 20,000 pounds or 10,000 pounds or five pounds, a thousand pounds for a course that actually you might find not quite for you or might not be as good as you think. We wanted something to be fair value and incredibly accessible and flexible. So that's exactly what the roadmap was. It was on demand. You could go in, you could watch your videos, download any of hundred resources, read and watch case studies from our community members. We've got vast amounts of content in there, but it costs about 50 pounds a month.

Andy Graham (36:04.832)

And if you join today and find it's not for you, you can cancel tomorrow. We don't tie you in. There's nothing like that. And I just think that's an incredibly fair way of letting people transact with our business. And we know that people that stay really value our products. And we know that some people who don't want to join or have joined and decided it's not for them, they don't. And that's fine. But we continue to make it better every single week because you had new content.

Our community are a huge part of that. We have now become, the roadmap has now become an educational platform for the community built by the community. I just happened to be the person that started it really. And I'm really, really proud of that. And, you know, we've had some about 600 paying members. We've won awards. We've kind of won best content provider last year at the HMO awards. It's, you know, I think we've done a really incredible and really special thing, but my God, getting the idea from sort of conception to reality was so difficult. 

And I mean, building a digital business as a property guy really was not easy at all. And I learned so much along the way. And again, it was having that long term sort of view on things that enabled me to do it. I mean, it costs an awful lot to build the platform. It's a bespoke platform and it takes time to let people know about that and let people get in and test it. If I hadn't have had that longer term view, something like that would not have been successful. Now it's incredibly successful and we have people join every single day without a question.

And it just gets better and better and better, which we're really, really proud of. But yeah, it was one of those things that needed so much time and so much effort upfront. And I look back at the younger me and think, glad you did that mate, because that's paying off now. And we've done a really good thing there, but it would have been so easy not to do it. It would have been easy to put my feet up, enjoy the free time that I had in COVID to do nothing, play video games. And that's just not me. It's not my personality. I was looking for another challenge and it was a challenge, but we kind of made it work in the end.

Jade McNei:

So how many hours a week do you put into the HMO roadmap yourself personally if it's so community led?

Andy Graham (38:01.87)

Probably an hour. Okay. Probably an hour. We've got a great sort team of people around us that do everything that we need from video editing to the creation of content. Yem, who works with me has been for a long time that you know, she's incredible. She's been an absolutely wonderful sort of person to work with and still continues in Yem kind of. Now because we've got the operations and the process and systems in place, Yem sort of runs does sort of what I was doing. She is able to pull all the strings to make things happen, which is so important. So actually my input now is more so limited to, okay, well, what can we do to improve things? What do we need to change? It's now becoming outdated. I don't need to be as involved on a granular level, but I'm able to do things that can just step up, which allows us to continue following our strategic vision of where we want to go and what we want to do. 

And also, a big part of my role and it's probably not fair to say that I spend an hour on it, because strictly speaking, the podcast you could arguably say is a really important part of the roadmap, as is engaging with our community and, you know, writing my Friday emails that go out to our entire database. So there's other stuff around the edges, but in terms of physically running the site, it's not me. I don't do it. My team do it.

Jade McNeil: So I couldn't get you on this podcast without talking about our favorite subject, one of our favorite subjects. Should we talk about social media?

Andy Graham: Yes, I could have loved like, you and I could have loved having a on social media, we?

Jade McNeil (39:28.922)

Well, some of the best DMs I get are from you on Instagram, when you're sharing something questionable that you may have come across online and you're like, have you seen this? And then literally I'm like, where do you even find this from? And it's all like property related stuff that some crazy content's gone out there and you just think, wow. Because like back in the day, it was such a simple kind of like platform of post a nice picture, get a bit of engagement, make some mates. Like now it's not gone a bit mental really, hasn't it?

Andy Graham: I think it's evolved. The engagement is so fleeting and we as property investors and developers and business owners, we're a fraction of the tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the number of users trying to generate value on there. And getting that attention is really, really difficult and it's become so hard. And I think we've talked about this already today. I place so much value on credibility and reputation and authority and there's no amount of money in the world that you could give me to do certain things. And to say certain things, I mean, think one of the videos I might have you recently was, and I still can't get my head around this, but like someone doing like some property stuff and they were like, they had goats. And like the thing is I'm part of the problem because I love watching this.

Jade McNeil (40:42.663)

Yeah, and I always say that to you. I always say that to you. Well, you're watching it.

Andy Graham: I love watching this stuff, if I was to do that sort of thing, does that speak to what I'm trying to achieve? It doesn't. That's not going to resonate with the type of investor I want to work with or perhaps the banks that I'm lending with. So as much as I enjoy watching it, probably not for the right reasons, but it has changed. It's yoy know, the honest truth is it's become really difficult to get that attention because the algorithms and the platforms just don't give you as much reach.

Andy Graham (41:15.252)

So you've got to work harder and you've got to think smarter and you've got to, again, think a bit further ahead with everything that you're doing. I would say we're not experts in social media. I've used social media really well over the years and it's done what I needed it to do. At times do I wish it could have done more? Absolutely. You know, do I wish that our videos would have got a greater reach? Yeah, absolutely. But I feel like there is a layer and a level that we would have to get to, to maybe significantly change that, which then starts to conflict with my personal objectives, which I really try and stay true to.

 I've got some non-negotiables in my life and your business is only a part of life. My non-negotiables are, I want to walk the dog every day. I want to train and exercise every day. And if I can't do that, I kind of think, what's the point? If I can't, yeah, I to self-help. I want to spend time with Gemma and Isla. And there's only so much time I've got, even with systems and processes and the right team and people in place. 

And some things just cannot be at the top of the list of priorities. And for me, social media is one of those things. It's not my absolute strength. It's not our strength as a business. Is it important? Yes. Is it essential? Yes. But there are other things in our business that are more important. And for me, turning up and recording my podcast and speaking to our audience that we've already cultivated over a long long time is more important than me trying to come up with the next viral video that may or may not have some sort of positive impact on the business.

I think I'm pragmatic about it. It's really important. We've got to do it, but I try not to overthink it. And I just do what we're capable of doing, what we're good at doing in a way that we're happy to do it. And actually the results speak for themselves. The business, my whole business group has continued to grow. We continue to raise private finance. We continue to be able to deliver what we need from social media at the pace that we need in terms of the actual bricks and mortar assets of property and business. And I'm perfectly fine with that. And I can honestly tell you that I used to do it when I was younger. I used to look at stuff and comparison is the thief of joy. Right. Well, that was me. I used to frustrate.

Jade McNeil (43:20.302)

I'll looking at my stuff going, I wish I could make my HMOs look as good as that.

Andy Graham: I did. I'll be honest, when you and I kind of originally connected was because you had to send me a message saying, hi mate, could you kind of not just like copy my posts and stuff? like, and I was like, yeah, fair.

Jade McNeil (43:42.206)

Fair play mate on your honesty there for telling that story because that is literally how he...

Andy Graham: Yeah. And because your stuff at that was incredible. Your stuff still is incredible. And I like as fairly new to Instagram, I had a lot more experience on Facebook. And I was like, how does all this like visual platform work? And that was back in the days when Instagram was just like, like, and yeah, so you can, you know, and I saw very quickly, touched a few hot plates and learned some lessons quite quickly. But I took inspiration from other people and, but yeah, it's just changed. It's just changed significantly since then. 

And I think every single channel has changed, but there's no good sort of complaining about it. There's no good sort of getting self-frustrated about what the people doing, what you're not doing. I tried to take a really pragmatic approach to it, do the very best that we can with the resources that we've got. And I look at stuff for inspiration and I look at ways to find and build connections and support people. And yeah, I do have a bit of fun looking at stuff and sending memes and things to my mates. I do all the usual stuff that we all do on social media, but it's a really crazy world. Like there's so much stuff on there and I just kind of think, my God, like.

How could surely, surely people wouldn't lend money to this person? Like, how could you? But the great thing about social media is like there is something for everybody.

Jade McNeil: Yeah, even the goats.

Andy Graham (44:57.196)

Yeah, I am not the person for the people watching those videos. Equally, like the people that watch these other videos, they're probably not the people that are watching my stuff. And I'm totally cool with that. And if time has taught me anything, it is that you never know who is watching. And I need that in the most positive sense of multiple. I've been approached out the blue by famous people, professional athletes for Premier League teams really incredibly successful business people that you wouldn't know that have exited businesses that have liquidated and had liquidity stays and got lots of money. They're often lurkers. 

You know, they don't know they don't say or they don’t post, they don't engage. And then one day they just reach out because they've been following that journey and your message has continued to resonate with them. And I, I just, get so much faith in that. And the fact that that continues to happen, that it isn't difficult to convince myself that we should just keep kind of doing what we're doing because it has been working. So I'd encourage everyone to try look at social media in the same way, but it is hard. Especially when you're starting.

Jade McNeil: It is like, I always say to everybody, it's a complete compounding game over a long period of time. Your content and your messaging, my experience is exactly the same as yours. It's the lurkers that you don't know about that will then come up after like five, six, seven, eight years and actually present some incredible opportunities. So showing up consistently, the messaging being right, getting yourself to be visible is just so powerful, isn't it? It's so, so powerful.

The word you used then was the compounding efforts and we talk about that a lot, don't we, in the context of investment and property, but it's absolutely true of your efforts in marketing and social media is marketing. And we've seen exactly that social media posting for a long time on Facebook and then on Instagram and then having our dead building a database and regularly touching base with our database with non-spammy content. Having a podcast that there's so many different things that do, if you work hard enough and consistently enough.

Andy Graham (46:47.598)

culminating really positive results. And I think that when you're staring down the barrel of maybe building your own social media channels or maybe getting started or trying to ramp things up, you've got to be able to have that sort of faith. And the examples are out there, you can see them and you don't need to reinvent the wheel, but you do have to be really consistent. And that's the hard bit, I think, for a lot of people.

Jade McNeil: So, Andy, obviously life's changed a lot for you with baby Isla coming into the world this year. So in terms of becoming a father and, you know, having multiple business plates that you're spinning, like how has fatherhood changed you and how you run your businesses?

Andy Graham: Let me try and answer the two components of that. On a personal level, as a person, Isla coming into our life has just been incredible, as we hoped it would be, and we feel really fortunate and blessed. And like I said, it puts everything into perspective. Your priorities overnight, they change. And I think what I've learned about myself is that I'm happy to do that and I wanted to do that. And I'm not sure that when I was younger, I would have felt the same. It was obviously the right time in life for me and for Gemma to do that. 

And we've really, we absolutely loved this time that we're now spending together as a family of three. But I have had to reprioritise everything else. I am no longer the most important thing in my life or even Gemma and Isla, Gemma and Hugo, you know, there's Isla now and she comes first. And so you've got to be prepared to adapt. And that's absolutely what I've done. And it's made me really realise so much of the value in what I've done is not monetary. What do I mean by that?

The ability to work from home, something as simple as that. I know many more of us work from home now than we did, but the ability to work from home, the ability to work on my own time, the ability to have the freedom and choice and flexibility. We're going to Scotland next week because that's where Gemma's from, it's where her family are. It'd be really nice if Ila can spend more time with her grandparents and family in Scotland and Gemma can see some of her friends from Scotland and they can meet Isla and she's got other friends with babies and things like that. Doing what I'm doing and making the sacrifices that I've made to get to this point.

Andy Graham (48:48.842)

allows us to do that. If I had a job and a nine to five, we couldn't do that. We could not go and spend 10 to 12 days every single month in Scotland. It would be impossible. So it's really amazing how quickly it is highlighted what we've been trying to do here as a family, you know, and as a business owner, what I've been trying to do. And I'm really grateful for that. I'm really kind of grateful for the younger me that did all of the stuff that needed to happen. And it's one of those things in retrospect that I'm now really seeing the benefits from and I'm really thankful for.

It's given a whole new perspective to everything as well. My objectives have been gradually changing over time, but you know, I've been for a long time, much less interested in cashflow. There's only so much cash you can generate every month, you know, before you can't spend it. We have a fairly modest life. My plan is sometimes I've been building longer term equity and wealth and actually what I'm doing now and having Isla really aligns with that. Actually, I'm happy to spend less time trying to force cashflow and I'm prepared to spend a lot more time on those longer term strategies like invest, like creating wealth through development. 

So that in 10, 15, 20 years time, there is a big liquidity day. And I've talked about this a lot in my podcast, but that's what I want to do. So I always just reshaped and continue to reshape the way that I'm approaching my businesses now. And I'm not saying that I don't value the income generating aspects of my business. Of course I do, but my priorities have changed a little bit now for a long time. It was all about generating cash flow and then it was a bit more about cash flow and capital. Now I'm a bit less concerned about the cash flow and I want to build more capital and wealth and I want to maintain that balance. 

I'm really proud of the fact that actually I have managed to maintain that balance. This is interesting. Six months ago, we had a pretty good idea when Isla was likely to be born and I knew that there were certain improvements and changes that I could make to a number of my businesses that would give me more of this time and freedom and flexibility. So we started implementing all of that six months ago. Now, what I fully expected to happen was that that did translate into me having more time and freedom of choice and flexibility and having to be in the businesses on a day-to-day basis. And that absolutely happened. What I didn't expect to happen was that all of that work would also generate more income and we would do

Andy Graham (51:07.308)

better as a business and as a group. December, January and February were unquestionably our best months across the entire group. And actually that wasn't my objective. That sort of happened because six months downstream from all that work that we did, all that efficiency and all that preparation has just resulted in a much better result. So not only have I on a personal level been able to do what I wanted to make sure I was there for Isla and Gemma, but also as a business, we've actually done better. 

So in a weird way, I should probably spend less time in my businesses because we seem to do better when I'm not there. And it's weird, like there's these things in life that almost, these life changing events that force you to do things differently. And all of a sudden you realise, actually there is a better way or a different way to do things. And so I continue to learn about all of this stuff, but I'm just really pleased that it has gone the way that it has gone. And I'm getting to spend this time with Isla and Gemma and I don't feel too exhausted or too stressed.

I know, she's only young and things could change and overnight we might be up all night, every night with her. But I think given the circumstances, all of the ingredients have allowed us to create this experience that we could have only wished for like five, 10 years ago. And I think I've always thought that business is about so much more than just the money. Yeah, for us, that's what it's about. And now our next big project is to do our own. We're currently renting and we've bought a new place and it's going to be a year's worth of work to our new home.

And then we'll have, you know, this incredible space to kind of bring Isla up in, which we're super excited about as well. So yeah, things are changing, but things are only getting better.

Jade McNeil: When I spoke to you before about the new house, I described it as bougie.

Andy Graham (52:40.524)

Yeah, I'm not bougie

Jade McNeil: You’re a little bit. You are somewhere you have to be to design that okay yeah

Andy Graham: Gemma's bougie. Gemma's bougie and Gemma's got kind of expensive taste. I have to reiterate, like, yeah, I like that doll that you picked Gemma, but that's probably not what we're going to be able to have.

Jade McNeil: I've just met your expectations there.

Andy Graham: I'd have to do a lot of managing damage, especially when it comes to costs and things like that on projects. I mean, we're just so excited to have this space where we can host and have family and I can grow up safely and we can enjoy. Like we've been designing the island for the kitchen and it's not like thinking about how we want the island and some seating next to it. Like it's so exciting because I can just picture.

Andy Graham (53:25.664)

us in the kitchen and, know, Isla at the table. We've created this little nook off the island that kind of come up with this sort of bespoke design. And it's so exciting to think about it. Cause actually what we're designing, cause not just a house, but we're actually, we're sort of designing our life. Yeah, of course. It is totally different to designing commercial projects for renting to tenants. So we're kind of really in the depths of that at the minute, but really enjoying that process. And hopefully over the next 12 months, I can finish that scheme off as well. And yeah, it'll be a nice addition to our life at the minute.

Jade McNeil: Do want me to give you a top tip, design tip for a family home? Number one thing that you need in your life is a designated area for like coats, shoes, book bags, like stuff. Wellies, riding stuff. Like, so we've got a boot room, which sounds dead posh. And obviously I'm not dead posh, but I do have a boot room. So yeah. And anyway, I love it because you just shove it all in. Everyone comes in, takes all the stuff off, but you have to look at it. You don't want look at that. Not in that house. So that's my top tip.

Andy Graham: Well, I think that's a great piece of advice. And actually you'd be pleased to know that we've sort of got, we've got a utility that's actually, it's more of a boot room than just a utility. It's quite big. It's not necessarily what you would typically, or where you would typically design it in a house because it takes up quite a bit more space than you would usually give to a utility. And we've thought exactly that. And like we design even the windows, we can have a little bench seat under the window. And I just kind of love thinking about Isla sitting on there and putting a little muddy well as on and off.

Taking the dog out. So yeah, we're excited to kind of bring it all to life. And lots of sort of hard waterproof stain resistance, that sort of stuff now is all in the mix as well. By the way, I don't think you can call me a boogie. You've got a horse as well. You've got a boot room and two horses. 

Jade McNeil (55:10.432)

I do have a boot room and two horses.

Andy Graham: I'm just a man, I'm a man with a dog and that's it.

Jade McNeil: I yeah, I battled the mud and the rain and all of the elements and the children, but I wouldn't have it any other way, you know that. Andy, listen, I've absolutely loved talking to you today. Like it's been wicked having you on my podcast. Thank you. And thank you for giving me time and coming on. You know, like over the years, you've always been one of the people that I've kind of come to them and said, got this idea, what do you think? 

And you've given me some really clear perspective on do this, do that, think about this and so on. And doing the podcast was absolutely one of those things. So thank you for encouraging me and answering all of my voice notes about how to create it, what do I need to consider, what systems do I need, what will the team need to do? Because yeah, it's been really fun and I've enjoyed doing it. So thank you for your support there. yeah, for giving me your time today, Andy. If people want to find you, see projects, how do they do that?

Andy Graham: Yeah, I am pretty easy to find on Instagram, @andygraham.hmo. You can find me as Andy Graham on Facebook. You can come and check out the HMO community. That's our free community group on Facebook. Or you could join the HMO roadmap if you're investing in HMOs and you want to learn how to either start, scale up HMO property business, come and check out what we've got on offer. This is just an absolute vault of content and downloadable resources that save you hours and hours of time and thousands and thousands of pounds and trying to do it all yourself the hard way, but yeah, just head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk and everything's there you could possibly need.

Jade McNeil (56:35.598)

Cheers, Andy.

Andy Graham: Thanks Jade.

Andy Graham (56:44.878)

That is it for today's episode guys. Thank you for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with myself and Jade. Big thanks to Jade for inviting me onto the BeeSpace podcast. I know it was a little bit different to what we usually do on the show here, but hopefully that just gives you bit of additional insight into me and my businesses and the ups and the downs and the challenges. And hopefully you thought it was an honest sort of insight into all of that stuff. Business can be hard at times. I just try and make the most of the hand that I've been dealt.

I love property, love building businesses. I love the creative side of what we get to do. I love working for myself. I love the flexibility offers. love making money and I love chatting to people about property as well. But hopefully in there somewhere with some value, some inspiration, a bit of motivation perhaps, and maybe just a bit of honest reflection on what building property businesses is actually all about. That is it guys. Thank you for tuning in. Don't forget that if you want to come and find some guidance and support, head over to the HMO community. That's our free group in Facebook, over 10,000 members now all on hand to help you. 

Of course, if you are building a HMO property business and you do want to level things up, head on over to theHMOroadmap.co.uk and take advantage of everything that we have got inside there. It'll absolutely blow your mind. And when you think about how much we are spending and risking when we're investing in HMOs, then it is an absolute no brainer. I wish it existed when I was just getting started.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it had, I'm pretty sure I'd have achieved twice the amount in half of the time. That's it guys. Thanks again for tuning in and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.