More Deals, Planning Challenges, Completing Projects, Refinancing & More! #BusinessUpdate

In this episode, I’m excited to bring you up to speed on everything that’s been happening in my businesses over the last few months, plus a general update as well.

As many of you know, I’ve been on paternity leave recently, and when I first planned this update, I expected it to be a short episode with not much to report. Well, I couldn’t have been more wrong! There’s been so much going on—tons of exciting developments and real progress.

So today, I’m giving you a full update. There's a lot to cover, and I’m especially excited about what 2025 holds. If you’re curious to peek behind the curtain and hear all the latest from my business, stick around.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 01:49 - Paternity Leave and Family Life
• 10:01 - New Projects and Planning Permissions
• 19:30 - HMO Portfolio Management
• 21:18 - HMO Community Milestones and New Content
• 25:08 - Efficiency and Growth Strategies

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.704)

In today's episode, I'm going to bring you up to speed and let you know what has been going on in my businesses over the last few months. And of course, I'm gonna give you a bit of a general update across the board as well. As a lot of you guys will know, I've been taking a bit of time off on paternity leave and strangely, when I put this recording slot into my diary and I'm recording on Sunday the 23rd, so a few days before the podcast is going to go out, I was convinced that it was going to be a pretty sort of short episode with not a huge amount to report back to you on.

And boy was I wrong. There's so much going on at the minute. Lots of really exciting stuff, lots of progress. Today I'm going to just kind of bring you right up to speed. There's a lot to get through. I'm really excited about 2025. I feel like I'm in a really, really great place on a personal level. Don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean the road ahead this year looks easy by any means. That's certainly not the case, but I'm looking forward to it. And I'm looking forward to bringing you guys up to speed on what is going on at the minute and what that all looks like. So if you want to take a peek behind the curtain, if you do want to know what's been going on in my business, then make sure you stick around. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

Hey guys, it's Andy here and we're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment. But before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

Andy Graham (02:20.052)

We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:59.502)

Okay welcome back. Today is a business update. Well, it's not really just a business update. It's more of a general update, a bit of business, a bit of life, that whole blend. If you're a long-term listener of the show, you'll know that one of the reasons I love what I do in business is because I'm really passionate about creating things and what we do in property and the deals. But it's also because the businesses and what I do in property drives all of the stuff that I like to do outside of property. And I particularly enjoy these episodes because reporting back to you means I've got to sit down. I've got to reflect on what's been going on. I've also got to think about what's coming up and it's a really great opportunity to focus the mind. And it also holds me to account sitting down recording and sharing this with you guys. I know that a few months time we're to do the next update and I'd to be able to report back and tell you what's been going on and hopefully share that progress. But if you're a new listener to the show, then what you're going to find is that I'm also quite honest on these episodes. It's not just a highlights reel business is very rarely just a highlights reel, lots of ups, lots of downs. And my business and what I do in property is no different whatsoever. 

But today I've got a lot to get through. And by the way, I feel a little bit like it's the first day back at school because I've been on paternity leave for a few months and I did a lot of work, pre-recording stuff well before Christmas. It's the first time I've sat down in front of the mic for a while. And I feel a little bit like it's the first day back at school. So if I'm a bit rusty today, that's why.

Hopefully I still got it, but I am looking forward to this. So where to start? Cause there's an awful lot. Well, I think first of all, the big stuff. If you've been following me on social media and if you're a regular listener of the podcast, you will know that Gemma and I, we were expecting our first child in January and Isla, our beautiful baby girl came along on the 17th and she is just perfect. And we've been in our little bubble ever since just really enjoying those first few weeks together as a family of three learning very, very quickly, lots of sleepless nights, you everybody warned us and just figuring out our new life and finding that new balance and enjoying every moment of it. It's been absolutely incredible. And we feel so fortunate, so blessed that Isla is well and she's healthy and she's doing everything that a five, six week old baby should be doing. And I think to give ourselves credit, I think Gemma and I are doing pretty well as well, is one of those things that usually I like to plan everything. And I did a lot of planning for our baby.

Andy Graham (05:19.618)

But until you really have the baby and you come home from hospital and you realise that they are actually going to let you walk out of the hospital with a tiny person that you are solely responsible for. Nothing feels quite real and obviously everything goes out the window as soon as you get home. But I feel like we've been really open to learning quickly and also following advice and we found our own balance and we really just enjoyed the moment. It's been absolutely wonderful. And of course we moved up to North Yorkshire only about six weeks before Isla was born. So no, a little bit before that, sorry, but there's been a lot of big change in our lives recently and we've just thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. And I've been on a fun paternity leave. I've took a few months off. That was all planned. And one thing I'm really proud of is just how well that turned out for me. A mentor of mine, JP, always used to say to me, look, until you've got a business that you can just walk away from for three months, you don't really have a business. And I think on the whole, my business has allowed me to do that. Perhaps not the development business as such, it's still a fairly mature business in many ways from an operational perspective. And that's fine. But certainly my trading businesses and my own portfolio. And it's given me that freedom and that choice and that flexibility to have my time off and paternity leave to come back and phase my way back into work in a way that suits me and suits Gemma and suits Isla. 

And that's been absolutely wonderful. And I'm so grateful for that. And that is absolutely the result of years of hard work, lots of calculated risks, working really hard, sweating it out to build a business that really does the things that we hope that a business should do. Recurring income, stability, predictability, all of that stuff. So I'm so pleased that I've been able to do that. I think had I been in my old career as a physio, there's just no way I would have had two weeks off and that would have been absolutely it. And I would have been back to work and this has just been so different to what that would have ever looked like. And I'm really, really grateful for that. 

So it's been incredible. I think we're doing really well. Isla's just beautiful and she's doing really well. And yeah, we're just absolutely smitten. It's just wonderful. Of course there's been compromise and balance. I think a few things have kind of gone out the window. Obviously lions, they've completely gone. Not that I lay in that much, but it's pretty tiring having a new ball.

Andy Graham (07:38.712)

Getting that balance right with work and fitness and just eating well and seeing people. Yeah, there's a lot. And I think to be honest, there has been some compromise that I've just had to have to accept. I think one of the things for me that I haven't been able to do as much as I often like is my exercise. You know, it's one of the things that has just fallen down a little bit. To be fair, I've still managed to get some regular exercise in, but just not quite as much. And I think also from a business perspective, I am still only back part-time in honesty and there's stuff that I just simply can't get to that's just going to have to wait. 

And I made a really conscious decision well before Isla was born that this year I wasn't going to push myself. I really was going to take my foot off a little bit in some areas so that I could enjoy this experience of Isla and having a baby with Gemma as much as I possibly could. And I took lots of advice from lots of people, lots of my pals in business who've had children themselves and they shared some really great advice and that was a really conscious decision for me.

And that can be tough for me at times. I'll be honest. I see emails and people want to need my attention for various things and pushing it back and delegating stuff as much as possible. It becomes increasingly important. And there is just stuff that isn't getting done that will ultimately impact the results. So there is stuff that will end up costing me more where maybe I don't have the time to spend vetting things or people or costs myself and rely on other people to do it. And sometimes things slip through the net.

Maybe some people just are not quite as diligent, whatever it may be. And that's just something I've accepted. But I think on balance, that's right. Those compromises are absolutely the right thing and the right choice for me. So I just wanted to be really honest about that. I didn't want you guys to think that I've just been on paternity leave and everything has just been running completely as normal in the background. Largely it has, but definitely not everything. And definitely there will be some sort of lagging effect to some of that. Inevitably it'll just cost more, like I said, and maybe some of the income will drop as well.

But I'm okay with that. In fact, I'm absolutely fine with that. That's kind of the most important thing to me. It's the stuff that I do outside of work and the business, the work, the businesses, that's all there to drive that stuff. What's the point in working really, really hard if actually you're not going to then prioritise the most important things to you in life. So I'm really happy and really proud about the way that I've been able to handle paternity and that time with Isla and Gem. And yes, I'm back at work now.

Andy Graham (10:01.464)

Gradually increasing sort of back towards my normal workload and capacity, but still very much finding all the time that I want to be with Gem and Isla. The other big thing that just on a personal level that happened for us was the planning permission that we got for our house. We recently moved to Harrogate, North Yorkshire. We agreed to buy something last May. It took a while because it became a probate sale and then it went into planning. And a few days before Isla was born, we got that decision. We got the planning permission, which was incredible. 

And then just a few weeks ago, we exchanged on the property and then actually at the end of next week on the 28th, last day of February, we are completing on that as well. So that was really kind of big, big moment for us as well, because we are also prioritising this year, our own home. We sold our place in South Yorkshire near the peaks and we're doing our own big project this year, which is unique for me, because I'm so used to just doing investment projects. This project is going to be completely different. I'm looking forward to telling you guys more about that soon, but yeah, big win and really, really, really excited about this one. It's going to be very, very different. 

So onto a bit of business stuff then. So from a HMO perspective, full occupancy and actually just my student stuff is also fully let right through until June 2026 now. So yeah, I've got a lot of oversight on my portfolio. It's running really well on the whole. Recently inspected it. There were no issues at all. I had no arrears, nothing like that whatsoever. I will say that I had a lot of, of boiler maintenance over the winter. It's a cold winter, isn't it? And I've got some old boilers, if I'm honest, and it's really starting to cost me like thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds. That wasn't ideal. And that was one of the things that despite having the management in place that I have, nobody can really pull the trigger on whether or not you need a new boiler and who's going to do it and what type of boiler. So I did end up getting involved in some of those conversations and decisions, but that is all part and parcel of being a landlord, isn't it? Another weird one.

And just being totally honest with you, one of my HMOs was up for a refinance, just pretty standard refinance. Wasn't looking to do anything particularly creative with it. Wasn't really bothered about pulling any money out of it. Went to a lender that I've flown with on numerous occasions in the past, but they declined my application. Couldn't believe it. It was valued all fine, but actually as it went through underwriting, they declined it. And the reason they declined it, you never get a totally straightforward answer from underwriters, but actually what they did tell us was that they just really.

Andy Graham (12:24.718)

were not comfortable with the size of my overall portfolio and the amount of development that I was doing and the sums of money that ends up getting moved around as part parcel of those developments. They are not a specialist lender. That's fair to say they're pretty kind of, they're really a high street lender that does HMO stuff and they just weren't keen in the end, which is really frustrating because I paid about £800 for a survey and obviously lost about eight weeks waiting for it all to come through. Anyway, that's since been refinanced with somebody else.

But it's interesting because it hasn't happened to me before. And I suppose that was just an evolution of my own business. I suppose I just fallen outside of their lending criteria without really realising because of the other stuff that I've got going on. actually it did remind me that you do have to keep an eye on this stuff. You just got to be aware about the direction of travel that you're going in and refinance that they're up and coming and different lenders want different things. And you just got to be aware of that stuff ultimately.

The lender that I'm now going with or refinanced with, they're a bit more expensive. It's fine. It's fairly negligible in the grand scheme of things, but it is a little bit frustrating at the time. I'll be honest. So that's the HMO stuff, honestly. Really good, really quiet on the whole. Things are just ticking along. Still really like to buy HMO, but another one, but now it's just not the right time for me. I've got, as you're about to find out, a lot of other stuff going on. 

So the roadmap and the community. Well, the HMO community hit 10,000 members in the last four five weeks, which is a huge milestone for us. The community is so amazing. I'm so proud of it. The conversations and the support, the experience, the guidance that people are willing to share inside the community really is incredible. And I'll be honest, it has taken a lot of work to grow the community to 10,000. I started that years ago. It requires constant nurturing, a lot of policing, a lot of engagement on a personal level. It requires a huge amount of energy from our community members as well.

It’s a community for the community by the community. I was really, really proud of that. It's such a great space to learn about HMOs and to network about HMOs. Inside the HMO roadmap itself, we've added tons of new content while I've been off. Sam and Alex, co-founders of SO Property, you might remember them from the podcast recently. They did a fantastic masterclass, which was shared, called A Beginner's Guide to Buy, Refurbish and Refinancing HMO Projects in Article 4 Areas. They really broke down the entire process and

Andy Graham (14:42.68)

covered everything from finding the right property to securing planning permission in an Article 4 zone to designing high yielding properties, being cost effective with refurbishments and how to scale that strategy up. I know a lot of you guys listening, you are doing that BRR strategy and doing it inside the Article 4 direction can be a bit more challenging, but it really is a wonderful masterclass. So go and check it out if you haven't. Plus we added some amazing case studies. I love the case studies that our community members create for us, but Tim and Charlotte Hockley.

They did a mega case study in their six bed HMO that they completed recently. There's a wonderful sort of 3D tour, know, Matterport tour inside there so you can actually get in the property and walk around yourself. They bought the property for about 350,000, turned it into a luxury student property over about two months that had issues with sort of tenant conflicts, which they inherited, difficult agents, sort of tight financial constraints on a bridging loan, but just go and check out what they created. We also had a case to do by Mark Hayhurst, Seven bed HMO conversion also with another 3D tour. Mark is actually an ex army officer turned developer and has a huge amount of experience in the property space. Go and check that out. And one by Matthew Wilmer as well, he shared his recent five bed HMO project. He bought that for 200,000 with tenants in situ and then refurbed it in a sort of an eight to 10 week schedule, which is really tight considering what he did. We've also added loads of downloadable resources as well. So tons of stuff being added to the roadmap while I've been off, which I'm really, really proud of.

Well, actually I'll come onto some of the general performance of the business and figures and things like that, but it was a pretty good month in January and December actually. From a development perspective then, wow, so, so much going on here. So we have been finishing off our 7,000 square foot, 10 unit scheme in Norwich. Huge amount of credits to my business partner, Mike Clay. You regular listeners of the show will know Mike well, he's been on the podcast a few times now. He was on quite recently actually. Mike's worked incredibly hard to push that one over the line.

It looks incredible. I mean, Mark and Powell are our architects and Mark's my business partner. Such great designers, but seeing those designs come to life, the scheme really does look so, so cool. It's a corner building, has a lot of prominence. It looks absolutely awesome, but nice to see that one finished up and now started to tenant it. We're on the home stretch on our 18,000 square foot, 24 unit scheme. That one's almost done. Mark is project managing that one.

Andy Graham (17:04.622)

Again, doing a really incredible job, almost there now. And we're really excited to see that come to life, but it's starting to look really good. We're about to start our 6,000-ish square foot new build. That's a 13 unit scheme. So about to draw down on the finance package at the end of the month and get that started in March, which is very exciting, but an awful lot of work has gone into that. You might remember in the last business update, I was talking to you about planning and they kept bouncing the planning decision along and they had the risk of delaying us.

And that one's about to kick off, but a lot of work has gone into that to get it to this point. Planning on our 10,000 square foot scheme at the sawmill in Sheffield. And that still hasn't come through, believe it or not, which is disappointing. We've been really doing the dance going back and forth with the planning department, who to be fair have been from day dot supportive of the scheme, but we're up against a holistic building and Historic England have been a bit tricky, I would say, about what they want to see in terms of the external design of ours, which is a little bit frustrating.

You can't help but feel that if they want to design the building, perhaps they should buy the building. But at end of the day, they have a lot of clout. A lot of the decision responsibility that planners have to make is weighted on what Historic England will say. If you are within sort of the curtilage or the remit, if you like, a listed building, that's the case here. So that has been a bit trickier. So just to clarify, when we're not developing listed building, we're just next to a listed building. But that has meant that we've been under much more scrutiny and basically had to in our opinion, significantly reduce the aesthetic value of our scheme. We basically had to make it look worse to make sure that the listed building still looks good, which in my opinion, it doesn't look very good. It needs someone like us to buy it and actually do it properly. It's completely abandoned at the minute as a lot of listed buildings are really frustrating, but we are very, very close. We have now got a decision date for about the 10th of March. I think it is fingers crossed that does actually come through. And I am feeling quite positive about that.

We are going to get planning. I'm really confident about that, but just want to make sure that it doesn't get bounced long again, because we'd really like to start this scheme as well. This one, I'll be project managing. So we're really keen to get that tendered over sort of March and April, maybe start that scheme in May, all of the subject planning coming through. But that's a really, really exciting one for us. We've also agreed heads of terms on new scheme, which is exciting, but far too early to say anything else about. And we did offer on something else last year, but that hasn't been accepted, although it hasn't not been accepted.

Andy Graham (19:30.488)

We're not in a great rush either, it's fine and we'll keep talking to those vendors and see where we get to later this year. Alongside the developments, and if that sounds like a lot, I can assure you it is, there's been an awful lot of refinancing as flats have been finished and now have to sort come off the development packages onto the term finance. With each of these huge amounts of legal work, creating leases, separating titles, redeeming people, new loans.

So, so, so much involved. So again, I said earlier, our development business is still relatively new in the grand scheme of things. And we're just feeling that squeeze from an operational point of view now. But what we have done is brought somebody into the team. brought Lewis in, which is a really exciting hire for us. Immediately he's had a great impact and it's going to give us a lot more capacity to deliver our projects and actually do it more efficiently from an operational perspective. There's so much behind the scenes. Any of you guys that develop even smaller projects, you'll know how much is involved. Planning applications, legals, financing, just general administrative, tenanting, onboarding new tenants, managing agents, managing them. There's just so, so much. The list is really, really long, but that's really, really exciting. So that whole kind of body of work and stuff going on in the development business is super exciting.

I think 2025 looks really, really exciting for us from that perspective, but it looks busy. So just something that we need to be mindful of and we need to make sure that we can keep on top of that entire workload. And I'm sure we will, but I'm really, really excited because it feels like we're really finding our stride now with the types of projects and what we do with them and who we work with and our lenders and things like that. So very, very exciting. And we are producing some really cool stuff. We did obviously win a couple of awards last year.

And I feel like we could win some more awards for some of the stuff we're doing. We just seem to be doing better stuff. So I'm so excited about all of the development stuff. So stepping back then, just from a more of a bird's eye view perspective, just looking at the trading businesses. So not the development stuff. I want to share something. I think this is quite interesting and it surprised me actually. So December was the second best month. If I look at all of my trading businesses that we've had to date, December typically isn't

Andy Graham (21:47.532)

a very busy month, usually things just drop off in December for various reasons and usually not the best month for occupancy and things like that. January then was the fourth best month today. So not quite as good as December, but still pretty good. And by the way, I'm looking over several years here, like maybe the last five years worth of data. And I track all of the data, by the way, to the pound. And interestingly, February is set to be the best yet by a long, long way. And this really, really surprised me because if you've been listening to the show, you'll know that before I took some time off on paternity leave, we obviously knew that Isla was due in January and I had been planning to get sort of three to six months ahead with all of my work so that I could have that time. And what that often means is, and what I've found before is that you spend a lot of time sharpening the tools, sharpening the blade, getting better at everything, being more efficient. 

And sometimes then, because you haven't been as involved in the business before that, then period of time that follows, things can start to slip a little bit and drop off a little bit. But actually what we've seen is that all of that work, everything downstream from that work was just better. We had better income, more leads, and we were just more efficient as a business because we'd cut things out. And so we had two of our best months today, and then we are going to have our best month today at the end of February. I can already see the results that have come in for February. I don't know the entire sort of results, we're not quite at the end of the month while I'm recording this, but I already know that this point in the month, it is the best month that we've ever had and we still got a week to go. It was really poignant. It really stands out to me. 

Why does this three month period when I've not been in the business look the best? The obvious reason is probably because I'm not in the business, right? That might be in part why, but also it's definitely because of all of the stuff that we did in advance of that three months to improve the business, that meant everything downstream just looked better from a financial perspective. And I think there's a huge amount to learn there. And actually it just really reminded me how complacent we can actually become because we don't put ourselves under the pressure to do certain things. Like how often do you go back and look at your business overheads and think, do I need that? Could I cut that out? Could I reduce that subscription? Do we need all of this? Could we go somewhere else that maybe doesn't have all the bells and all the whistles, but still does the job?

Andy Graham (24:10.978)

Are we efficient? Are we duplicating our processes? Have we got more than one person doing the same thing in our business? All of that stuff costs money and it takes time. Time is money. So a big learning for me from the last few months would be to go and do this yourselves in your business. If you haven't done this for a while, go and look at absolutely everything in your business that you are doing and ask yourself and be really honest about whether or not you're doing it as well as you could be. Can you save time? Can you save money? And this for me is all about building that business that you can walk away and leave for three months. I start today's episode off by talking about how pleased I was and proud really that I've been able to take that time off with Gem and Isla. It's not easy to build a business with those systems and those processes that allows you to do that. And yes, there are some caveats. I couldn't take that sort of time away from my development business entirely. That's not at that stage yet, but I think over time we'll get there. But you have to be really proactive with this sort of stuff. And I know a lot of people get into property businesses and build their own empire because they want to do that. They want to get their own time back. They want that time and choice and freedom and flexibility. But often what happens is they get little bit distracted by the pound signs and the projects run away from them. And yes, they're earning more on paper, but actually they're getting sucked more and more and more and more into the business. They're getting busier and busier and busier. So many people come to me and they say, they're doing well, the portfolio is going well, the numbers look good, but I just feel a bit trapped and I don't know how to get out of this. 

And often it is that lack of people in the business, processes, lack of delegation, inefficiency, things like that, just stuff that they're doing that really just doesn't even need to be done. So go and analyse your business. If you haven't done it for a while, do that. Make sure you, looking ahead this year, you take that time to really get into your business, lift the bonnet on your business and ask yourself all of those questions and tackle them head on. Sometimes the quickest solution to growth is actually to refine what you've got rather than adding to it. And that can sound counterintuitive. And if you're a property person like me, often we sort of default to buying the next project as being the solution to going to that next level. And so often it really, really isn't. 

That is honestly about it for today's episode, guys. I hope you've enjoyed that. I know I certainly did. Like I said, I do enjoy sharing these with you. I'd love to know what you've been up to.

Andy Graham (26:25.294)

So come on over to the HMO community and let me know what's been going on in your business. What's been going well, what's not been going so well. What are you doing this year? What are your goals for this year? Share them with me. I'd love to keep up to date with what you guys are doing as well. 

If you haven't already joined the community, it's on Facebook. Come and check it out. It's free. Like I said, great place to be. Over 10,000 investors to help you, to guide you, to support and advise you. If you haven't joined the HMO roadmap, come check that out as well. I know you will have recently heard us talking about the roadmap a lot. Our sale has ended now, but don't worry, I promise you, even at a price that isn't discounted, it is so valuable if you're investing in HMOs. If you want to build that business that gives you that time and freedom and choice and flexibility, if you want to build a good profitable business, if you want to build a scalable business, it's all in there. And remember, it's not just me. It's not just lessons from me teaching you the way that I do things. It's built by the community for the community. So you can access almost hundred different case studies from different people from all over the country doing different types of projects with floor plans, before and after, photographs, budget breakdowns, financial performance, 3D videos, all sorts of stuff that'll help you learn. 

We've got so many master classes I've completely lost track covering everything from interior design to architecture, advanced deal analysis, and just so much more. Plus you can download almost a hundred different templates and downloadable tools, resources that you can just use in your business immediately. I guarantee a lot of these will save you thousands of pounds buying them from elsewhere or save you hours and hours, maybe weeks of time trying to create them yourselves and probably still not getting it quite right. Just get in there and download everything that I've already created for you. 

That is it for today's episode guys. Thank you again for tuning in and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.