Project Managing HMO Refurbs: James Ashford’s Insider Secrets

In this episode, I’m joined by James Ashford of Carter Ashford, a former mentee of mine, to talk about all things project management. James has years of experience managing large residential projects, and now he’s applying those skills to the world of HMOs.

Managing HMO projects can be one of the toughest parts of building a HMO business. It’s not just about finding a great deal or managing tenants—it's about keeping your projects on budget, meeting deadlines, and making sure everything runs smoothly. James shares his insights on how to manage contractors, reduce costs, and stay on track throughout your projects.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 03:10 - James Ashford's Background in Project Management
• 08:50 - Challenges in Managing HMO Projects
• 10:44 - The Importance of Preparation in Project Management
• 20:08 - Leveraging Contractors and Resources
• 23:21 - Essential Documentation for HMO Projects
• 36:54 - Understanding Contracts and Their Importance
• 43:49 - Maintaining Project Timelines and Accountability

If you're working on HMO projects or thinking about getting started, this episode is full of useful tips to help you manage your developments more effectively.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short term investment plan soon became a long term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

[00:00:40] Well, boys and girls today, you are about to experience a bit of a masterclass on project management, because today I've got James Ashford on the show. James is a previous mentee of mine. And as you're about to find out, James's background and career in property is in project management. All residential stuff, a lot of it, very fancy and very big stuff as well.

[00:00:59] But James has taken those skills and experience and brought them to HMOs. Today, I want to pick his brains. I want to find out what good project management is all about. This is one of the areas of building HMO property business that I think people find more difficult than anything. Figuring out how to do the analysis on a deal, how to negotiate a good deal, how to manage tenants, how to manage your HMOs.

[00:01:21] That's actually all the easy stuff. But figuring out how to manage projects, how to manage contractors, how to reduce your costs, how to stick to programs and timelines, how to stick to budgets. That is a really, really difficult thing to master. So the good news for you is that today we're going to find out exactly why, but more importantly, what sort of things we can be doing to reduce the risks, reduce our costs, reduce the timelines and make our own lives a lot easier.

[00:01:47] If we're going to be project managing our HMO developments. So if that all sounds like something that you are gonna find pretty useful, then make sure you stick around. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

[00:02:04] Hey guys, it's Andy here. We are gonna be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I wanna tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you are serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:02:20] Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:02:35] We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:02:50] And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:03:14] Hi James, thanks for joining me on the show today. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:16] James Ashford: Thanks for having me. How are you doing okay?

[00:03:17] Andy Graham: Really well. Thanks. You and I obviously know each other quite well. You've been a mentee of mine previously, and you've got a really interesting background in project management. And I'm really keen to have a chat about that today, James, and explore project management and what our listeners could learn from you.

[00:03:34] And I know there's an awful lot, and I know that for a lot of our community members. Managing projects and preparing for projects is one of the most challenging elements of this whole game. And you're a bit of a master of this, but before we get there, James, and I've got loads of questions today, and actually I'm looking forward to learning a lot more myself from you today, but before we get there, can you tell us and our listeners a little bit more about yourself, what you currently do, and I suppose what you're actually doing in property in project management and in property, I suppose, from your own perspective, business perspective.

[00:04:06] James Ashford: Sure. Yeah. So I suppose my journey into property has been sort of a. A fairly longish and convoluted one, really sort of growing up, my dad was an engineer, so I kind of grew up in very sort of hands on practical environment. My dad also developed quite a lot of property himself as a younger man, and he actually ran an engineering business that required some premises to operate out of.

[00:04:26] So he actually developed a few of his own light industrial units, so which would act as a training center. As a sort of a child, I didn't have your typical summer jobs. I was on building sites. I was helping out with my dad with some, and then he actually ended up moving more into development as he sort of approached semi retirement.

[00:04:42] And so it's been in and out. So I've been sort of exposed to that my whole life, really in terms of sort of how I sort of ventured then into property myself, I studied management at university. So you've got property and you've got management. It kind of starts pointing you inside of, so in our managerial role in, in property and maybe project management sort of becoming on the, on the horizon.

[00:05:00] So. And as soon as I was, I was able out of university, I actually bought my, my first property with a, with a friend of mine when I was God about 17 years ago. Now, when I was 23, couldn't afford to buy in London where I was working at the time. So me and my friends actually, uh, clubbed out a bit of money together and we bought a student property in our university town of Reading back in 2007, which possibly the, one of the worst is to buy a property.

[00:05:22] But yeah, it kind of grew from there. We still own that property. We turn that into a two up, two down into a student let, and then sort of circling back around to my sort of career in project management. I've really kind of crafted that and honed that really. So I'm also over the last 10 years, really in my role at Savills, sort of a large real estate company that I'm sure a lot of your listeners will be familiar with, and I've headed up until very recently, I've actually just left there at the end of last year, but I headed up their interior services team, which is a residential project management team where we would on behalf of clients, people who were buying through Savills.

[00:05:55] Existing portfolio clients of samples who have their properties let managed by the company. We would essentially look after the full concept to completion refurbishment life cycle. So it wasn't always investors was potentially. We also worked on behalf of owner occupiers as well. People who are buying predators, their main residences.

[00:06:13] So we would get a lot of those sort of clients coming to us through their state agency network. And then we would, you know, a lot of them wanted a complete hands off approach. So they would employ our team to essentially, as I say, project manage that concept to completion life cycle. Throughout the last 10 years, been very fortunate to work on some amazing real estate in some of the sort of the most prime postcodes in and around sort of London and the Southeast primarily.

[00:06:35] And yeah, I had a team of six project managers running around doing that. So, and then on the side as well, I've continued my journey. My brother, actually, he lives in Liverpool. So I was fortunate enough to be able to access a really bustling student HMO market sort of six, seven years ago. We got in there just pre article four, managed to acquire a few HMOs, which we've developed and continue to operate through a small business.

[00:06:59] And I've got a small portfolio as well of properties in the South as well with my wife. And yeah, then personally, I'm now sort of on this bit daunting, but I'm on this sort of journey now where I've decided to develop that company out. I'm looking to take my project management experience and look at developing out my own portfolio.

[00:07:16] Alongside providing project management consultancy, primarily targeting investors who do want to build their portfolios, but want a project manager to essentially allow them to build their portfolios in a fairly hands off manner. So similar to what I was doing, but really looking at helping investors to build their own.

[00:07:31] portfolios. So that's where I'm at at the moment. And I've got a rather exciting project, which I think you and I have discussed previously in West London that I'm currently developing out, which is a three unit site, which will have one of the floors will be a five bed HMO. So yeah, really excited about that and what lies ahead, really.

[00:07:48] Andy Graham: And that project is actually quite unique, isn't it? Because it was actually an opportunity, if I remember rightly, that you came across this essentially like a lease option, like a rent to rent type of deal. But I still stand by this. The numbers on it are the best that I have ever, ever, ever, ever seen.

[00:08:02] And I remember we sat down and had a look at this deal and I was kind of blown away thinking, Oh my God, this is really, really special. So looking forward to maybe chatting to you more about, about that one off there. There's no doubt whatsoever, James, that you have a wealth of experience in this industry and clearly specifically in project management.

[00:08:20] And it's interesting how somebody like yourself with such experience and no doubt working on some really incredible projects also still has that book to go and do it yourself and they kind of build something that's your own and you're perhaps a bit more independent from the corporate world from, and you're taking those skills to potentially help other people along the way as well.

[00:08:38] So. I've got a lot of questions that I want to ask you today about project management and perhaps trying to explore ways that our listeners could improve how they manage their own projects. Um, I mean, maybe just to get us kicked off today, James, managing HMOs. Not even just HMOs, but managing any projects, it can be a huge headache.

[00:08:58] I think it's fair to say for pretty much anybody and on a site of almost any size as well. I've done small projects, quite big projects, and I think the one consistent feature is that it's always quite challenging. And actually, and interestingly, sometimes the smaller projects are even more challenging, the larger projects, and they take just as long and you lose just as many nights sleep over it.

[00:09:18] But just to maybe get us kicked off from a high level. I've had some absolute must do's and sort of big mistakes that our listeners could avoid doing, or could try and do alternatively to perhaps sort of approach these sorts of projects that they're managing themselves.

[00:09:34] James Ashford: Yeah, absolutely. And you're a hundred percent right.

[00:09:36] I have. So friends and colleagues who work in a large scale commercial development, and sometimes they prefer to sit there than working on, you know, single residents, single dwelling residential projects, because, you know, ultimately, as you say that the headache can be just as great. But I think that one thing that I would say that has really struck me and has stuck with me as the biggest don't, I would say is as a project manager is don't wing it.

[00:09:59] It is all about preparation is the old adage of failure to prepare is preparation to fail. And the biggest sort of do around that I would say is have a framework. You'll know from having over painstakingly put together the HMO roadmap. It is a roadmap. It takes people on a journey of what you need to do to get from A to B.

[00:10:16] And project management is essentially, it's very much that. It would be great if you could hand the keys to a builder and say, I'll see you in 12 weeks and pick them up, he's been paid and off you go both into the sunset. But it doesn't work like that, which is why people like me exist and my team existed because there's a lot that needs to be managed in between.

[00:10:33] And so, yeah, I would say the biggest thing is really having a framework and sticking to it. So as you can make sure that you are really methodical in your approach and sort of my role as a PN, we often have used a framework, which is the Reba seven stage plan of work might sound pretty techie, but it's essentially the Royal Institute of British architects.

[00:10:52] They have a seven stage plan of work, but it's really not that it's very straightforward. And a lot of your listeners and your landlords will be doing those processes anyway, but essentially takes you through brief and design. Rehashing the design, pulling together a cost plan, making sure that what you're looking to deliver actually meets your target market through the construction phase into closeout and then building the project.

[00:11:14] And so if you are essentially following that methodology step by step, it really stops you from falling into those pitfalls that are very easy to fall in. And the first stage would be to look at your brief and your objectives before you buy a property. You and I, we've discussed it before. You're very big on your area analysis, market analysis, ensuring that you're delivering the product that meets your target market, all of your due diligence, make sure that what you're buying, you're buying right.

[00:11:36] And you've got something that's going to deliver it at the exit.

[00:11:39] Andy Graham: I was going to ask James and this part that we're talking about, this part of the framework that you're describing now. There's almost a pre construction phase here. And then there's the construction phase, which I think when a lot of people think about project management, they do think about being on site.

[00:11:52] You know, once the project started managing the tradesmen, managing the project from a start to finish that transformation, that refurbishment, but actually what you're clearly saying is actually that the project management process begins well before that, doesn't it? And there's this whole pre construction phase, which is kind of absolutely critical, almost like, I mean, like decorating in my simple mind.

[00:12:11] So much about a good decorative job is the preparation before the easy way is actually slapping the paint on it. And that's the way it should be. There are no surprises and it can be done quite quickly and efficiently, but you've got to do all that preparation in advance. So let's talk a little bit more about that pre construction phase and that framework, perhaps for our listeners who aren't familiar with things like rebar and stuff like that.

[00:12:33] What does this actually look like in terms of. Templates or plans on paper, or maybe ways and methods that we can as people who are not as sort of up to speed on this kind of stuff, ways that we can actually do it ourselves. Cause I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with the idea of a schedule of works, but in terms of project management and a tool for project management, I suspect that that is a.

[00:12:52] Probably about the limits of what most people are aware of. So what does that pre construction phase look like? And what sort of tools, what sort of things do we actually need to be doing in getting down on paper to get that bit right?

[00:13:02] James Ashford: Yeah. So I think as you go through, once you've identified the brief and sort of again, circling back to that pre construction question in the Reba stage of work, plan of work, stage five is construction.

[00:13:13] So that's four of the stages are actually all pre construction before you even get on site. So yeah, it's all about just making sure that what you're delivering, that you can essentially pull together a package of work that you can give to your builder and you're leaving as little to chance as possible.

[00:13:27] And so you work your way through those phases and you know, what do you want to get out of the space? So if you're going through planning, you will need to get somebody involved to provide you with a set of planning drawings. If you require some building control, which a lot of HMO conversions will require.

[00:13:41] You're going to need a building control submission. So you're going to need a set of drawings, but it's all about actually working back through and doing a lot of things that people are already doing, which is looking at essentially what you want to get out of the space, but then validating what you want to get out of the space.

[00:13:56] So when a good saying, well, I reckon I can get five bedrooms out of this and I can move the bathroom for the front to the back. Can you feasibly do that? So you may well then go, okay, well, let's stop here. What are the limitations of the site? What are the look on the local authority website? What are they saying in terms of minimum room sizes for HMO?

[00:14:13] Are there any fire eggs restrictions in terms of the structure? Do you say, right, okay, well, actually we're putting in a loft conversion. We need a minimum roof height here. If we're going to raise the roof height, do we need actually planning consent? Cause we're increasing the ridge height. So we can't do this under permitted development.

[00:14:26] Have you got the article 4 thing kicking around? Look at all of these things, which a lot of your users will be doing, but having that framework just to follow and a checklist. And that's what's really important is in terms of not only saying, great, I can do this. Are you going to validate that? And so validating each stage, it might be that you get someone in to do some investigative works, actually.

[00:14:46] To see, okay, actually we can't get a steel across there. We don't have the space in the void to be able to actually get the services and the soil pipe away. So we can't move that bathroom from the front to the bottom. So actually that might completely change your five bed into a four beds. Does that make it 20 percent less commercially viable?

[00:15:02] So it's, those are the sorts of things that I think that actually you really want to sort of look at putting in place as you go through that process. And it really is a case of making sure that you've got the documents, documenting everything and having a framework in place. To make sure that you can follow and make sure that you are validating, because once you've validated what you think you can do, you know that you can definitely do it.

[00:15:24] Then after you know that you can definitely do it. It's then saying, okay, what we now need to pull together is a scope of works and that scope of works needs to be, and. Not just broad brush loose information, but really detailed and as detailed as you can possibly make it. And I think that that's really important to make sure that you have the ability to be able to deliver a project and you know exactly what the expectations of those people that you're employing to do the work on.

[00:15:48] Andy Graham: And I think one of the things that I have found over the years doing this many times work with a lot of people who've done it themselves. Part of this process, it can look time consuming and it can look expensive, especially when you start to think about bringing in specialists and consultants to do dirt and things and to validate stuff.

[00:16:05] So perhaps just to build on what you were saying, I think some examples there, James would be getting optimisation studies, perhaps by the architects to, can you actually get those five bedrooms in? Does it functionally work in the space? Getting an engineer in to come and assess the space. Will you be able to create the appropriate structural support where you need, if you take certain walls down on some of the larger projects, we need drainage consultants.

[00:16:27] There's a whole kind of raft of different people and different specialties that you need, aren't there? And I think sometimes the bigger projects probably beyond the scope of HMOs, let's say up to about 12 beds, but there's a kind of whole other world of energy consultants and all sorts of stuff that's going to start to feed into this.

[00:16:42] Isn't the sat calcs and stuff, but. Getting those people involved and getting those and spending the time and the money to get those expert opinions. I think can often look quite expensive and is one of those things that I've seen a lot of people try and avoid. And actually by sidestepping, I think one of the big mistakes that a lot of people make is they actually end up increasing the cost further down the line because that specificity isn't there.

[00:17:09] And of course they start to uncover problems, certain things aren't the way that they need to be or certain things don't fit the way that they need to be. And when you've got a contractor on site and you've got people stacked up to do certain works. I found that that's where it can become incredibly expensive.

[00:17:24] If you're then getting extras above and beyond maybe fixed prices, if people are turning up and they can't do what they need to do because they're waiting on other people and they have to go away and come back, it starts to delay programs. So I think it's really important that while we're talking about this stuff and validating all this stuff, it's also really important to think about what the costs of not doing it could be as well as the costs of actually doing it.

[00:17:44] James Ashford: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you're absolutely right. You can, if you've got a good contract, you know, a lot of your more experienced landlords will rely heavily on a contractor that they have known you. And there are some caveats, you know, I'm sure we'll talk later about contracts and things. You always need to protect yourself, but look, you can lean on those on that support team and around you certainly where you're.

[00:18:03] Working on larger scale projects, a lot of the time you're going out to tender, you might be using a contractor that you've never used before and you're engaging them on a multi million pound project because that's, you go through tender interviews, but actually the HMO setting and trying to make it more relevant to today, it's, you can actually lean on an experienced builder who will help you through a lot of the building control submission and you can actually say, well, look, I'd like to package that up as part of your piece of work, uh, contractor.

[00:18:26] And I'd like you to manage the inspections by the local authority or the private building consultant that we bring in. And at the end of the work, I'd like you to issue me with a satisfactory building regulation certificate. So you can actually lean on your contractor to actually do a number of those things and a good contractor.

[00:18:40] It's not like you've got to sit there and pull together a scope of work. You can go out to the contractor and you can ask them to tender or quote on the work, and then you can take that and you can look at building the detail around that from a document that you actually get from your contractor. And that's how you build up a scope of works.

[00:18:56] But there are templates out there widely available on the internet that if you look, and I'm happy after this to share it on the community, some of the templates and documents that I use and have used that work really well, but you can find a lot of resources very easily. That will just help you to document and really concisely pull together each of those stages, but leaning on your team and those people around you.

[00:19:18] And if you're starting out, then yes, absolutely. Be a little bit more cautious because you might not have those relationships and make sure that you really are putting the time and the effort into that pre construction phase to make sure that your scope is detailed. Because I've seen a lot of times in a professional capacity where a relationship has soured because you've gone into a contract or people have blepped in and it's been on to looser information.

[00:19:42] And so whether that's scope of works and all of the other pieces of documentation that go around that, a set of drawings, I appreciate that people are really trying to avoid additional costs. I'd be lying if I said on some of my personal projects that I would be using a CAD engineer, a CAD technician every time to pull together a slight change to a bathroom layout or something like that.

[00:20:01] You don't do it, you know, you can agree it on site with the contractor. You can actually rough sketch it, crude sketch it, and then go back and actually do something on Google SketchUp, which you can learn fairly easily yourself, and then actually submit that with an accompanying email, just a document to your contractor.

[00:20:16] This is exactly what our expectations are. Things like that are better than nothing. So whilst I appreciate that we're in a landscape where every deal is viable to a point and you can get out the other side, but if you are looking to really sort of make sure that you're dotting the I's and crossing the T's, there are ways around it that yes, it requires time and input from you as the landlord, but I think it is really worth its weight in gold because it does just mean that you don't then turn up on site after you've had a busy week at work or whatever you're doing is alongside.

[00:20:46] If you're not doing this in a professional capacity and then you turn up and you go, well, actually I didn't expect it to look like that. And unless you're using, say, joinery workshops, which again, in HMOs, you're not gonna be doing that great in a commercial setting, but you're not gonna be getting shop drawings from a joiner.

[00:21:00] You're likely going to be, your main contractor is likely gonna be using his chippy to manufacture some of the join fitted you in the student hmo, the desks, and the fitted wardrobe. Mm-hmm. So make sure that, and often they'll have as well the ability to be able to. Provide some of that design detail as well, which you can then put in alongside your scope and put it alongside your contract and you can therefore when you instruct the contractor, you got a big package that actually says here's the scope of work.

[00:21:26] Here's the kitchen design, which a lot of kitchen providers will provide a part of their package. This is what we're looking for from you. You've provided the input. I've signed off on this and said that I'm happy with how this fitted joinery is going to look. And you package all of that together. And then that does really mean that there's less interpretation, less likely for things to go wrong and less work that you need to redo.

[00:21:49] Or you have to compromise and be happy with something where you go, didn't really want it to look like that, but. Oh, is it going to affect the less ability of the property? Probably not. But if you can get it right first time, why wouldn't you know what I mean? So that's my kind of ethos. And I don't think you need to be bogged down and know that you work on some large scale projects.

[00:22:05] And, but I think for some of the listeners who are really scared about that cost, just think a bit more creatively about how you can do it, but you can still do something that's far better than just not doing it at all through. Spending a bit of time and a bit of resource on making sure that you've just closed some of those loops in terms of uncertainties around certain things.

[00:22:23] Andy Graham: That's great advice. You're absolutely right that there is a real spectrum to how far you can afford to go on any scheme because of the viability of it. And actually, I think to be honest as well, one of the things that I found is that on the types of schemes that we're perhaps talking about here, HMOs, small residential schemes, It suits a particular type of contractor and those particular type of contractors will find it much more challenging.

[00:22:47] To tender, you give them a hundred page pack. It can be overwhelming. And actually it can be quite daunting for them because it looks like you may be the sort of client that will hang them out to dry that slightest mistake or any adjustment at all. And that could be an issue. And, and I found that that can concern some of the smaller contracts.

[00:23:04] So finding that sensible middle ground, I think is really important and practically actually quite essential. I want to get to contract because I think that that's a really important part of this process and a way of packaging everything up. But just before we do, just continuing on that vein of pre construction stuff, what sort of documents and drawings would you typically expect to be handing over then, James?

[00:23:26] Are we talking about floor plans, mechanical and electrical drawings? What sort of stuff are we actually talking about?

[00:23:32] James Ashford: Yeah, so I would say you really want to try and be as detailed as you possibly can really, uh, without going into sort of overkill if you like. But as I say, if you've been through planning, you will have need to have onboarded at least an architectural technician, probably an architect to have helped you with some planning drawings.

[00:23:47] That's a really good starting point. You've got some proposed layouts of what you're going to build from there. It's likely that you are applying for building control and therefore you will need to have done a building control submission, which will have a lot more technical information in it, and you will have needed to employ a building surveyor or somebody similar.

[00:24:05] In order to provide that that's another layer and it's something else that goes with it that adds into a pack that any builder who's building a HMO would expect to see, as I think we mentioned, if you're looking at, say, one of your run of the mill kitchen providers, they will be able to come in and provide you a detailed kitchen design with layouts, elevations, 3D drawings of exactly what's going to be delivered from a kitchen.

[00:24:27] Perspective bathrooms I've found on sort of residential projects often, but it will one that sometimes falls under the radar a little bit. And so it's easy to specify the sanitary where the taps, the showers, those sorts of things, but actually if we were doing a larger residential project, one of our clients, we'd be really adamant that we actually want some really detailed drawings and elevations and setting out plans of the bathrooms as well.

[00:24:48] The shower enclosures going here at what height are we having the raindrop showerhead based on the ceiling height? How do we work in the space? Down to the setting out of the tiles. Have you actually agreed with the contractor? Where the grout lines are going to run? Is it in the middle of the room? Are they starting from one side or the other?

[00:25:03] So the setting out of the tiles, so if you can get drawings around things like that, so as the setting out can be incorporated, great. If you can't, then you are going to need to be in my opinion, in those sorts of environments, a bit more hands on and making sure that you've at least got those things flagged on your checklist.

[00:25:20] We know on the program that we're going to be starting to install a bathroom in week four. So therefore, let's have a meeting with a contractor and we know that there's some unknowns here that we need to iron out. And therefore, right, you've got 600 by 600 format tiles. We're going to run the grout lines there.

[00:25:34] How the back panel being those sorts of things really. So as you don't turn up again a week later and go, I didn't really want it. Sound like that. And those are the sorts of things that I think that you would then package up at the start, but if you can't make sure they're flagged further down the line to address those matters when you're on site, because let's also be realistic about small residential projects and HMOs.

[00:25:55] You are trying to maximise the output, but if you can do it, I would definitely do it ahead of time. And again, a lot of these things with a. A little bit of time investment into something like Google SketchUp or something similar. You can actually do a lot of that yourself. I don't think it'd be overbearing for a contractor to pull some of those things in.

[00:26:12] And another one is a finisher specification, detailing the finishes. Again, you know, as I said. Making sure that it's not just the main items, the flooring, the sanitary wear, but actually thinking about the detail, what color are the tile trims? Are you using tile trims at all? Are they getting on the face or on the edge of the window reveal?

[00:26:29] Things like that that often are overlooked, or it might be things like we've gone for a black shower and black taps, but have we thought about the basin wastes and the flush buttons on the toilet? They've now come a standard in Chrome and they've been installed. Not a problem, probably not going to affect the legibility of the property, but do you want it to all be coordinated and look like it's been really well thought through as you as a landlord when you're sending that package out?

[00:26:50] Yes, you probably do. So if you, again, if you can do it right first time, why wouldn't you?

[00:26:54] Andy Graham: I'm laughing because those exact sort of examples happened to us on a project not that long ago. Yeah, it's happened to me as well in the past. And actually a bit awkward to try and find. a brass colored push button, sort of waste and like a waste trap for the shower as well.

[00:27:09] And actually, had we have dealt with it before, we wouldn't have had to spend loads of time retrospectively trying to figure it all out, which is when things are quite busy. Yeah. And also just to add to what you've said, I think you raised some great points about making sure that. That detail when it comes to the final spec is there.

[00:27:25] It's so disappointing when you've done all of this work behind what you see behind the walls and everything's kind of hidden away the way it needs to be. But then that last bit, the stuff that you actually see and your tenancy, if it's not quite right and you're really emotionally involved in the project, like many of us are, it's really disappointing when certain things like the tiles are maybe not laid in the way that someone does it in a kind of a brick style, as opposed to stacking them, they use a chrome trim instead of a black trim.

[00:27:52] And yes, you could compromise, it probably wouldn't have an impact on lets ability, or even what you could earn and achieve on the rent, but it's quite disappointing to see. Yeah, now over the years, I've made those mistakes myself, and I've learned and continue to learn every time, just do the work up front.

[00:28:07] James Ashford: And those are also the things that you don't have to be a heating engineer or a natural engineer to actually know how to control those things. Those are the things that are in the project management is all about controlling the elements that you can control as the client or the customer, the landlord.

[00:28:21] You can definitely control those elements, whereas actually going back to your point on would we want to see detailed M and E drawings from the contractor? Yes, potentially. But actually, if they're not that much used to you as the end user because you don't actually necessarily have that much experience in exactly how the hot and colds need to be run to each bathroom and back to the kitchen and how the heating loops are all going to be run, it's important to have a conversation about what it is the performance that you're looking to achieve.

[00:28:47] And actually, I would like that if you've got a two story, I'd like the floors to be zoned separately so I can control the heating separately on the first floor to the second floor. Okay, in which case you're going to need two heating loops. So, but that actually goes back to your, again, lean on your contractor, because if they're a good quality building contractor, and a lot of the time in it, again, in a, going back into a contractual point of view, a lot of the time, larger scale projects have done on a design and build basis where actually the, the employer's requirements are sent into the contractor and actually on them to design out how they then best facilitate that first fix.

[00:29:19] So that first fix that you don't see behind the titles. doesn't need to be on them and it needs to perform and they are contractually bound to make sure that it performs as it should do. And you as the end user using a good quality builder should be able to make sure that that is being delivered and you need to do your due diligence on the builder to make sure that they've got the experience and the track record of delivering quality projects and therefore that's a bit of a given.

[00:29:41] But equally, you're not going to be able to control that much. Unless you have actual experience to be able to make detailed decisions around that, but those other elements you definitely have in your control. And so again, I would control them and make sure you're getting the visual output that you're looking for to go along with the performance and the quality first fix, as you said, that sits behind the visible finishes.

[00:30:03] Andy Graham: Let's talk about contractors for a moment, then a key part of making any project come together. And actually one from personal experience over the years, I've increasingly learned the importance of planning. At well ahead of the project, persisting and actually trying to build a relationship, a good professional relationship, often with a view to value engineering the scheme to where we need to be.

[00:30:26] But what are the big challenges? I think that a lot of our community often faces knowing when to engage contractors. And you've said yourself that James actually lean on your contractor to feed into some of these plans. And I think it can be quite tricky sometimes to engage contractors at those early stages before they know there's a real commitment to the project.

[00:30:44] And I think sometimes balancing the number of conversations that you might need to have with a number of contractors to get to that point can be something that investors sometimes don't feel particularly good about. We don't want to waste people's time. Only one person is going to get awarded the job at the end.

[00:31:00] But how do we manage that with contractors? And when do you think is a good time to be engaging contractors in this process?

[00:31:07] James Ashford: Ideally, you would say as early as possible, really, but I appreciate that. That's not always feasible. I think that again, looking back at the framework that you would follow, it's important that as you start to develop a scope of works, you need to have an understanding on what it's going to cost you to build, because you're going to need to tailor the scope of works and what you're planning to do based on.

[00:31:25] There's no point. Designing something to the nth degree and then you send it out tender and you go, Oh, we can't afford to do this. So you've got to engage, there's only two ways of doing that. And that's either you involve someone who has, you either have the experience yourself from previous projects. So, you know, roughly I've done a HMO on the same street, five doors down.

[00:31:44] I know what this is going to cost me to build, give or take. And you can start to build the design really quite detailed, knowing that you're in the right ballpark. And then you can engage a contractor slightly later, but equally, you've probably got a relationship with the contracts from previous contracts from projects where you can engage them earlier without that worry about wasting their time anyway.

[00:32:01] So it is a little bit chicken and egg in that regard, but what I would say is that unless you're going to employ a cost consultant or you have the experience yourself, like a quantity surveyor who can build that for you, you do need to get the costs from somewhere and the only place you can get the costs from.

[00:32:17] is a contractor and I've listened to previous episodes of yours with some of your other investors. And they've also said that we actually engaged with the contractor and said, you know, that we, we identified as one of the key contractors in a particular area. We started engaging with them as early as we possibly could because actually we ended up using them because we knew that they would be able to have an experience of delivering HMOs for other people in that area.

[00:32:37] So I think that. Again, a good quality contractor and going back to when we would in a professional capacity where I tender out a project, you are going to be one of at least usually three contractors that's going for a job. And so you should be prepared that you're going to have to put your best foot forward as a contractor.

[00:32:53] I wouldn't sort of encourage your listeners to worry too much about that is part of the process. You need to go out there and need to sell yourself and say, this is what I'm looking to do. I'm seriously interested in employing your services and asking them to actually look at building that in an outline cost plan is very easy to put together.

[00:33:10] And then you can go back, revisit your design and your specification and your scope of work to make sure that it's falling within your, you know, any budget constraints that you have. But it is really important that you engage them in that. As early as you possibly can, or you have some way of being able to cost the project at the early stages, because otherwise you will end up in that situation where you'll have this shiny design of something that you want to deliver, but you actually get to the point where you then have to value engineer it back the other way and possibly compromise on things.

[00:33:39] But if you can do those in real time by engaging with somebody, and if you're a serious investor, you bought a property, you're in the process of buying a property. Pretty obvious. I would have thought that you are a potentially a really serious client for these guys. And if they don't win this one, there's definitely could potentially win the next one.

[00:33:54] So I wouldn't be too concerned about that, but I think that there's only so many input points, if you like, of where you can get that cost input. And you want to get it from potentially somebody that can deliver the project and it'd be accurate. And you're not having to pay through the nose for it. Then a building contractor is the best place to start and do try and engage them as early as possible.

[00:34:12] Andy Graham: We'll shortly be tendering from a project. It's not one of our large commercial to residential projects, but it's a much higher value project than a typical HMO for me. And I've done exactly what you said. I've started actually sort of discussing the project with contractors several months before that we even started the drawing pack, as soon as I kind of knew I was going to be buying it or had the offer agreed and.

[00:34:34] Continued those conversations through the process of the initial drawing pack and through planning and what that has allowed me to do. And this is the way I often try and do is build a good relationship. I often don't start asking for indicative costs very early. I like to have some drawing spiel to work off.

[00:34:51] As soon as I've got some working drawings. Sit down and have conversations and try and get some indicative costs. And I, I always try and make sure I'm just looking for indicative costs at the minute. I appreciate you haven't got the full spec. You don't know exactly the tiles and the bathroom, sanitary wear and stuff, but there is a bit of back and forth.

[00:35:07] And I do that with a number of contractors, ultimately with a view to try and get to. The best sort of intersection of what we ultimately build out and develop out and the right contractor that can deliver that at the right price. And actually, that's not always the lowest price contract. I think it's important to say that sometimes it's actually more about the time that they could do it in the comfort that you have got from that particular contractor.

[00:35:30] But in my experience, it is a process. It's a bit back and forth. And I think we would often like to think that this is a really black and white exercise. We. Get an offer agreed on a property. We get some drawings. We take the drawings to a number of builders and we get them to cope and we can do it that way.

[00:35:44] But I think what we're saying is that actually that's not always going to get you the best result. And sometimes you might overengineer something and have to pull it back in. Sometimes you might just find that you end up with lots of quotes from quite a cold start and actually the prices can be a bit higher.

[00:35:59] So I completely agree with you trying to build those relationships and go through that processing, use feedback from people. Contractors through the process to guide the, sort of the final design, I think is a really important part of the process and it does get easier. The more you've done, obviously, if you've got a project and you've done one previously with a contractor and you were happy with their work, it makes it so much easier because you've already got that experience and that data to tell you how long it took and what it cost and what materials you use.

[00:36:29] And you've got that real benchmark, but it is more challenging on the first one. So just to reassure our listeners, this isn't meant to be an exact science and what I would suggest. Is that you really do put some time aside to do this process and do it properly. And I think that that's the bit that most people fail to get right.

[00:36:45] They try and rush the process, end up with costs that aren't quite right, or a spec that ultimately isn't quite what they want, but let's talk about how we package this up. Into some sort of an agreement than James that protects everybody again, one of the things that I think we probably would be more familiar with the idea of doing on bigger projects and sometimes on smaller projects, we perhaps overlook sometimes at everybody's expense.

[00:37:10] So what are your thoughts on contracts? What types of contracts can we use and how do we actually do this? Because. Some of it is to the lay person, somebody who doesn't understand contracts and design and bills and things like that. It can look a little bit overwhelming.

[00:37:25] James Ashford: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the key thing is to really just sort of pull the cover away from the assumed complexity, really.

[00:37:31] I think that essentially you have. Things like standard letter form contracts, which a lot of people which use, which have an associated terms of business that accompany them. And those are absolutely fine. But unless you've got a really keen eye, or you've got somebody who can look over it for you with a legal background, this is being typically prepared by the contractor.

[00:37:48] And so you're often possibly signing something that may not be necessarily in your favor. So I would always say, look for something that's a neutral contract. And so, yes, you're absolutely right on larger scale projects. JCT contracts have been in circulation for a long time, and they're a standard form of contract, which we use in the UK and that have always been synonymous with larger commercial projects, but less so with smaller residential projects, but the JCT is that the joint contract tribunal, they have now brought out a suite of homeowner contracts, which don't require you to appoint a consultant or a contract administrator in order to actually navigate your way through these.

[00:38:25] They are fairly, as I say, standard form. And so you can literally create your own login on the JCT website. Yeah. You can select the sort of contract that you want, which is typically a homeowner contract where you are employing the contractor directly. You can fill out the necessary information, identify the documents that you are accompanying with the contract.

[00:38:45] So that's your scope of works. You finish your schedule, your kitchen design, any other drawings and bits and pieces. And so they go as the associated contract documents. And essentially it's a preformed contract, which will. Really, again, and going back to that piece about sort of following a framework, there's a contract framework there for you to follow.

[00:39:01] It is literally a tick box exercise. It sets out payment terms that you will be providing to your contractor. It sets in a retention. So there's a retention from which you will pay at the end and possibly after a period of time after the works are completed to make sure that there's no defects. It deals with insurances, making sure that the contract has the right insurances and that you also have notified your insurers that there's going to be people working on the property.

[00:39:27] It deals with what happens if the contractor is late. Is there a penalty for that? You don't always have to exercise it, but it's there if you need it. It deals with. Your responsibilities as an owner from a CDN point of view, which is making sure that you've dealt with the health and safety. It just says, make sure you've got a tick box exercise.

[00:39:44] And therefore it's, you hope that you never actually have to use it at all in any form other than as a reference document. But it's there if you need it. Should anything go wrong, there is an industry recognised document and contract that can be used to if you get some kind of impasse or there's a dispute that you can use and you know that given it's a, it's a neutral contract, it will be just as protective to you as it is to the contractor.

[00:40:09] Andy Graham: Yeah, there is ultimately a resolution to any exact number of problems that can happen on a project, small or large. And I think that that's really important because it can be tricky if you get into a situation with a contractor, whoever's fault it is knowing where to go and how you proceed. And like you said, and having an industry sort of.

[00:40:30] Standard that has a mechanism for all of these different scenarios for you to be able to progress. Maybe that means removing a contract from the project and starting with somebody else or whatever it might be. There is an ultimate outcome. I think that's really, really important because. Being stuck in a scenario where it isn't going well, you don't know what your options are.

[00:40:50] You don't know where to go. That can be pretty scary, especially if you don't have the experience. And just to add to that, I think the bigger the project, the more important, certainly from my opinion, that becomes because the risks are just far greater and the more attention you tend to pay to these sorts of things.

[00:41:07] Absolutely. Yeah. And actually we employ a contract administrator to put the right contracts in place and actually to administer. The contract through the duration so that whilst we make the payments to a contractor, yes, we make the decisions on we'd like to make this change. We're happy to approve that variation.

[00:41:25] It goes through an intermediary for us who is administering the contract, and it just helps create that level, that layer of professionalism, just a little bit of distance on a professional level from our contractor. In case there is a bit of a dispute and we found that that works really well. I'm not sure it's something that I would use on a smaller project.

[00:41:44] I'm not sure I feel like I would need to, but it just highlighting how important that I think that this stuff is as well. We do spend a lot of money on that, James. And I think on a number of occasions, it has absolutely been worth its weight in gold because there have been some tricky situations it's building, it's contracting and it can be tough at times

[00:42:02] James Ashford: And the homeowner version of the contract is literally, I think it's about 35 pounds to purchase and to put in place, and you literally can complete it yourself. You talk about variations, you talk about changes that you're making. It actually provides you with guidance notes and, and documents that go alongside that.

[00:42:17] So if you say, right, okay, well, we want to make a change, which often happens. You can document it. And that goes back to sort of coming back to the definite dues is document everything. When you agree something on site, make sure that you've documented it. Make sure you've followed it up with an accompanying email.

[00:42:32] So as you can refer back to it, should you have to say. Well, actually, this is what we agreed at that particular time. But the contract will actually, it provides you with the supporting documents to be able to actually make a note of a change, look at what the impact of the program may be. So we need to allow an extra couple of weeks.

[00:42:47] It's going to cost X and we instruct that into the contract. Now our contract value is a thousand pounds more for those changes. And we're allowing you an extra week. Therefore, the completion date is put to a week further back. I think it keeps everyone really clear it means you don't get it to the end of a project and go you're a little bit potentially over a barrel where it's like well we did those extra pieces of work for you and you took longer than thought you were going to do to take to do them and now you're asking me for loads of money for it you've agreed it at that time there's a process in place that you can follow to document it and bit and instruct it into the contract that's super simple and yet it just makes sure that you are again following a framework that leaves you in a really good healthy position.

[00:43:27] Come the end of the project that there's no sort of unexpected things that have gathered momentum as you've gone through. And there is often a number of changes. So if you're documenting those changes in real time, you're instructing them into the contract, you're allowing extra time for them. It keeps everybody obligated to the goal as well. And I think that's really important. And I think it's a really useful tool for doing that.

[00:43:48] Andy Graham: So we've talked about. Pre construction preparations. We talked about the contract, talked about the contractor, and a lot of the, what we talked about, I think within that are some of the methods to help make sure that a program stays on time.

[00:44:02] It's a six month program. The project gets done in six months or whatever it may be. Is there anything else, James, as a project manager that you do to try and make sure your projects do stick to the program, maybe it's more templates and resources that you and your contractor use and refer to, maybe it's.

[00:44:19] The way in the frequency that you perhaps meet and the environment that you do it. And any tips or tricks there that can help avoid those costly overruns, which inevitably so often happen on projects.

[00:44:31] James Ashford: Yeah, sure. A very high level. When I very first started out, there's a very useful diagram, which essentially is that cost is called the cost quality and time triangle.

[00:44:40] And essentially, if you, as the investor or the project manager, whatever, put yourself in the middle of that, every decision that you make will have an impact on either cost, time or quality or possibly. More than one of them. So just always bear that in mind in terms of the decisions that you're making.

[00:44:55] Is it commercially the right decision? I might be saving time on a certain thing, or it might cost less, but how is it, is it going to impact the quality of the product? Actually, if I go for a lower cost solution, does it actually take longer to install, so therefore I'm pushing out the time to always put yourself in that position when you're thinking about making decisions, what are the impacts, not just on cost, but on the time and the quality as well.

[00:45:15] That's really useful. But I would say other than that, when you're in the midst of sort of managing a project, then think about basic things. I always operate something that we call a PPR, it's a project progress report. So we would always meet weekly, make sure the right people are on site to meet with you.

[00:45:30] So is it just the main contractor? Do you require input from a specialist contractor? Who's maybe providing, I don't know, air conditioning or something like that, that you require their input for the meeting, because. Do you need your structural engineer or somebody else on site to making sure you got the right people for the site meeting so as you can get the most out of the meeting as possible and again document the take minutes from the meetings and in that document you really want to be setting out all of the actions from the previous meeting are there any risks to program so search such and such is on a longer lead time than inspected to do we need to rejig the program and bring other pieces of work forward around that to stay on program because we know that this item is going to arrive late.

[00:46:10] And then making sure that you're documenting all of that. And then you're again, you're keeping people accountable by going away from that meeting with a number of actions that you're then going to follow up on next week and see where they're at with them and things develop from there. But it's also, it just sets out all of the key information that you can go through each week and say, these are the key challenges.

[00:46:30] These are the key actions for this week. These are the key activities for next week, and here's the actions and who they're also attributable to. And so it's making sure that those people are accountable, whether it's your engineer needs to come back with the calculations on the structurals next week, whether it's actually a case of, let's say, you've got an issue with certain things that are taking a longer lead time to arrive, and how you then discuss with the contractor, how we then do works around that to try and stick to programmes.

[00:46:56] So, I would say that project progress reports and having regular site meetings with the right people are absolutely critical. That would be my sort of key top tip really. You chairing those meetings correctly with the right people and making sure that it documented would be really key and then updating, actioning it.

[00:47:13] When you go away from those meetings, make sure that you action and those people who are accountable for those various things are actually carrying out their actions as well. That is really key to keeping things on track and on time.

[00:47:24] Andy Graham: I think. Absolutely superb advice, James, and I'm conscious that we're probably just skimming over a lot of stuff and there's so much value in this. I think there is so much value in your knowledge and experience and So much time and money to be saved by just like you say following this framework 

[00:47:43] And I think it'd be great to dive into that a little bit deeper inside the HMO roadmap. Just before we sort of wrap up for anyone that's listening today, James, that would maybe like to find a little bit more out about what you do, where you do it, whether or not they can get involved in anything is, there a way that they can contact you or anywhere that they can go.

[00:48:01] James Ashford:  Yeah, absolutely. So my company is Carter Ashford. We are now across social, so you can find us on Instagram or Facebook. And we've also got a website as well, carterashford.com. So that's the best way to reach out. And yes, as I say, it's really difficult when you're looking at something from such a high level, when every element has so many.

[00:48:19] Individual points underneath it. So kind of, but equally, you don't want to make it scary because then I think they can sort of lead by saying a lot of people will be naturally going through a lot of these processes and carrying them out a second nature. Project management essentially is about you can't be an expert in every field.

[00:48:34] So it's about if you don't know the answer, it's about knowing who to go to to get that information and plugging it into the project. And then following a framework to make sure that gets delivered. And I know that sounds really high level and really easy, but yeah, on the master class, it'd be great to obviously drill down a little bit more detail into each of those individual elements and things that you can practically do.

[00:48:54] But I think that, yeah, you'll find that a lot of your listeners are doing it anyway. It's just sometimes being able to just make sure that you're putting it in a chronological order. So it was just nothing gets missed. Cause that is the key thing. When you miss something in a project. It's about the consequential knock on effects further down the line of that thing being missed. And as the plate spinning part of project management, really.

[00:49:15] Andy Graham: Yeah, well, that's reassuring to hear. And I think that this game is often about those marginal gains, just getting a little bit better about something, having a slightly better process. And over time and gradual refinement, you can build better businesses.

[00:49:28] We can save more money. We can make more money and property. Tend to move a bit of a snail's pace anyway, doesn't it? The good thing is that we don't often have to make decisions or do things instantly. We have got a bit of time to figure some of this stuff out, get a bit better at it, measure the results and then continue to improve it.

[00:49:44] But James, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you back on the show. It's been great to catch up with you again. I'm looking forward to seeing you kind of take flight now that you are doing your own thing. I'm sure our listeners will be following you as well. I'm looking forward to launching your masterclass inside the roadmap but thank you again for coming on the show. It's been really useful, really valuable, and I've really enjoyed it.

James Ashford: Thanks for having me. Yeah. All the best. 

[00:50:11] Andy Graham: That's it for today's episode, guys. Thank you for tuning in. Now, don't forget that if you want to level things up, make sure you head over to thehmoroadmap.co.uk. We've got one of our biggest sales ever on at the moment, and you can take advantage of everything that we have got for offer inside the HMO Roadmap. 20 percent off. You'll never get an offer like this again.

Get your hands on over 70 case studies from the community. Get your hands on all of my downloadable resource and templates that not only just save you hours and hours and hours of time, but will save you literally thousands of pounds having to create them yourself. Investor decks, loan agreement templates, rent to rent agreements, welcome packs. We've got everything you could possibly need. We've got the deal stacker. So if you're looking at deals, you want to do the math. You want to appraise your deals. I've got it all inside the HMO roadmap waiting for you. Stack your deals, compare them side by side, track the key metrics, the most important pieces of data to you.

You've also got expert masterclasses from everybody, including Ellie, our mortgage broker, Andrew and Mary, our architects, planning consultants, interior designers, and a whole lot more. 60 lessons from me teaching you step by step how to start, scale, and systemise through the process of finding more deals, funding your deals, raising private finance, fixing and refurbishing.

Finding and filling them with great tenants, and then getting into the flow of good property management to actually monetise your HMO investments. Trust me, for less than the price of a cup of coffee every single day. This could be the single most important decision that you make in 2025 to help you on the journey of building a really incredible and really successful HMO property business. So go and grab that offer before it disappears, just head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk. I promise you will not regret it. That's it guys. Thank you once again. And don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO podcast.