Balancing HMO Growth, Corporate Career & Family Life With Rebecca Alcock

In this episode, I'm really excited to be joined by a former mentee of mine, Rebecca Alcock. Rebecca is a Chartered Accountant and Chartered Tax Adviser, and until the summer of 2024, she was responsible for overseeing all taxes at a FTSE100 housebuilder. Since then, she’s shifted her focus entirely to Jolly Property, a venture she co-manages with her husband, Jolly.

Rebecca and Jolly primarily invest in Sheffield, and as you'll soon hear, they've achieved some truly remarkable things. What I find especially inspiring about their story is how they've managed to scale their business while Rebecca balanced a demanding corporate role—until recently—with raising a young family.

This episode is a real masterclass in getting the balance just right. If you're looking to scale your property business but struggling to juggle a demanding job, a young family, and all the challenges that property can throw at you, this is definitely an episode you won’t want to miss.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 06:01 – Transitioning from Corporate Life to Full-Time Property
• 14:48 – Scaling Up: From Property Flips to HMOs
• 18:00 – Navigating Article 4 Directions in Sheffield
• 20:54 – Capital Raising Strategies and Building Investor Relationships
• 30:01 – The Value of Mentorship and Networking
• 32:53 – What Success Looks Like for Rebecca
• 36:06 – Practical Tips for Property Investors

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short term investment plan, soon became a long term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start. Scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

[00:00:40] Andy Graham: In today's episode, I'm really excited to be joined by a previous mentee of mine, Rebecca Alcock. Now Rebecca and her husband Joel invest in Sheffield. And as you're about to find out, have achieved some really incredible things. But what I think is really exceptional about Rebecca and Jolly’s story is how they've managed this growth alongside Rebecca's busy corporate role, which he only recently left to go full time in property and having a house full of very young kids.

[00:01:04] Andy Graham: I think today's episode is an absolute masterclass and getting the balance just right. So if you want to scale up your own property business, but are finding the challenges of having a job, having a young family and everything else that property has got to throw at you difficult, then today's episode is definitely one you want to stick around for. Please sit back. Relax and enjoy today's episode of the HMO podcast.

[00:01:30] Andy Graham: Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:01:46] Andy Graham: Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full set of tips. 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:02:01] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:02:16] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:02:40] Andy Graham: Hi Rebecca, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:42] Rebecca Alcock: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:43] Andy Graham: Great to have you here. Obviously, Well, for you and I, we know each other rather well. We've worked with each other. Actually, you're based in Sheffield where I was for a long, long time. So I know a lot about what you guys do in Sheffield and, and the type of business that you run, but it's your first time on the podcast.

[00:02:59] Andy Graham: And actually, I thought that we'd recorded with you before. So we haven't, and I'm really excited to have you here on the show today. You're just obviously one part of your business, but for our listeners, Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves, your business, and a bit of the background that got you to where you are now?

[00:03:16] Rebecca Alcock: Yeah, so I am Rebecca and I'm one part of Jolly Property, which Is the trading name of our business, which is named after my husband, who is called Jolly and he absolutely hates it, but Rebecca Pockets, he didn't have the same ring. So, yeah, it's myself and my husband, Jolly. So Jolly has a background. He was a bricklayer, sort of from 16, did a bricklaying apprenticeship, worked for local builders.

[00:03:42] Rebecca Alcock: So that's his background. I'm an, well, I'm a chartered accountant. And most recently. Ran the tax and courtesy at a FTSE 100 and house builder here in Sheffield. So I'm very much, my background is numbers and his is very much practical on site. We have been investing in Sheffield for a number of years, quite slowly to start with, sort of starting out with our own home and things like that.

[00:04:10] Rebecca Alcock: And then over the past couple of years, kind of really accelerated as part of a plan for me to, you know, leave the corporate world behind. So Jolly has actually been full time in the business for about six years, but that was more, we were doing lots more flips. So that was just for him to replace his income rather than him being on site with somebody else.

[00:04:33] Rebecca Alcock: He was on spike for us. That's now changed quite a lot. So he's not allowed to be on site technically anymore. So yeah, that kind of fast forward today, I left work in August, so I am now full time in the business as well. So, yeah, we're excited for the next couple of years. We've had two or three years of quite fast growth and hoping to really build on that and do the same in the next few years.

[00:04:58] Andy Graham: Absolutely. Well, first of all, congratulations on taking that big step out of the corporate world, Rebecca, because I know that when we were working together, which must be a couple of years ago now, but I remember that this was always part of the plan, but actually you enjoyed your job, didn't you? And it played a really important part and role in you guys actually being able to build your business in the first instance.

[00:05:16] Andy Graham: And I think you're a great example of actually persisting. Well, it might not be that the kind of your first choice, but actually the balance that you struck and what you're able to ultimately achieve was great. And I've got some questions on that. And I want to, I want to find out a bit more about the master plan behind that and actually share it with our listeners today.

[00:05:32] Andy Graham: I don't think you've quite done yourself justice because you've got three kids as well. So you guys have got a busy life. So actually alongside. What was a very sort of full on corporate role and building a property business, you've got three kids. So the whole family life thing is no doubt a huge sort of part of where you need to place your attention and finances and things like that.

[00:05:54] Andy Graham: And I've got some questions on how you guys balance it because you're a great example. And as you know, and listeners of the show will know that Gemma and I are expecting our first baby next year. And aturally, do you worry about how am I going to find the balance? And you do look at people and think, Oh God, there's Rebecca and Joel and just go nailing it.

[00:06:10] Andy Graham: They're building the property business and they've got three kids and they're still doing the holidays. And you think, so, you know, there is a solution. So I'm really keen to find out a little bit about how you got that balance. Let's start with just getting into a little bit of the detail about why you decided to get into property, Rebecca.

[00:06:23] Andy Graham: It's not for everybody, as you and I both know, and many of our listeners, it's quite challenging. It's certainly not as easy as, as a lot of people would like to make out that it is. Why did you end up in property and taking it as seriously as you guys have done? You know, you’re both full time in the property business now.

[00:06:38] Andy Graham: There's a lot of eggs in that basket. Talk to me about that decision making process and how you ultimately did end up getting into that first deal.

[00:06:45] Rebecca Alcock: So like a lot, there'll be a bit of a theme with this with a lot of things with Jolly Property. It's come from me, because Jolly's very good at just sort of saying yes to my ideas and going along with it, which I really appreciate.

[00:07:00] Rebecca Alcock: So, I've always had an interest in property, watching things like Hoves Under the Hammer Grand Designs, it really came from my teenage years. I remember when we were looking for a new house when I was about 14, I was trying to convince my mum that we could like get a doer upper. So, and I had this real focus from when I started working when I was about 16.

[00:07:21] Rebecca Alcock: I had this real focus on buying my own house. So that was what really, I worked through university so that I could save my student loan, which became my house deposit. I bought a two up, two down in Sheffield not long after I started work and it needed some work doing so I drafted Jolly in, he knocked a couple of walls out.

[00:07:42] Rebecca Alcock: I think I was skiing at the time, I think I went on a skiing holiday and he was left with a list of things that he needed to do so I came home and he knocked a couple of walls out. And you know, nothing major on a very small two up, two down but yeah, knocked some walls out, put a new kitchen in, new bathroom and it started from there really. 

[00:08:01] Andy Graham: When you were young, Rebecca, and when you're doing that first project, did you envision it becoming what it is now and what you now envision it to be in the future?

[00:08:10] Rebecca Alcock: No. And even for the next couple of years. So with that interest, my dad said to me, right, well, we could buy a couple of rental properties and so we did that. We kind of went into a partnership. My dad put the money and I'd source, I'd find the properties. And it was very hobby. You know, when you talk about a hobby landlord. That was how it was run. We were buying, we bought three things and it was right, can we go and just, we were the ones doing the painting, could we salvage?

[00:08:39] Rebecca Alcock: Some furniture from somewhere and put it into furniture. It was very amateur. And when we look back now, oh my goodness, what on earth were we doing? But it was never the plan that that was going to be anything other than a pension, really.

[00:08:55] Andy Graham: Yeah.

[00:08:55] Rebecca Alcock: The properties were on repayment mortgages, which I would never in a million years do now at this point.

[00:09:02] Rebecca Alcock: Just so, yeah, it definitely wasn't always the plan that this would be a career. It was. How a lot of people, you know, start in property, I think because it was a pension for me in effect.

[00:09:14] Andy Graham: It's interesting, isn't it? Because plans can evolve and actually it's okay if the plan evolves. And I think sometimes.

[00:09:21] Andy Graham: And I suppose this resonates with me and my own story and how I got in, I think almost the naivety of just doing it and not worrying about it becoming anything empire like just makes it a little bit easier to step over that first hurdle and do the first project. And I think sometimes there's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves now, and certainly I think a lot of our listeners.

[00:09:44] Andy Graham: I'm sure will resonate with this, but seeing what other people are doing on social media and, and the pace and the scale at which they're doing. And it can sometimes make people think that they should be doing more, or they should have bigger goals and ambitions to start with. And that can be quite overwhelming, but it's nice listening to you and just saying, look, it actually just started as.

[00:10:01] Andy Graham: a bit of a hobby thing, just doing a property. Maybe it'll be a bit of a pension. And then obviously that has grown to talk to us about how that changed over time and what that looked like in terms of the number of projects, the type of projects that you were doing.

[00:10:16] Rebecca Alcock: Yeah, so the big change for us with this was when we had just had our first child, so we had Summer in May 2018, and at that point Jolly was still working for a local builder, so he'd been there for 12, 13 years, he was part of the family really.

[00:10:36] Rebecca Alcock: And it was great, but what it wasn't was it was not flexible in any way and he had to be wherever he had to be at eight o'clock in the morning and he didn't leave until half past four and he was expected to work a lot of Saturdays. That's not really what I want when we've got children. So what can we do to get you out of that?

[00:10:58] Rebecca Alcock: So again, the plan was still never let's create this property on pirate. It was like, right, we know what you're earning. How do we replace that doing something on our terms? And we decided that we would start flipping terrace houses. So we worked out that really we'd need to do about one every 10 months to replace Jol's income.

[00:11:19] Rebecca Alcock: So at that point, we refinanced the three houses that had been on repayment mortgages for five years. So released a shed load of money, borrowed a bit more, and off we went. So we did three flips in the space of two years. It gave us the flexibility to. No, we had our second child a year later, Joel had eight weeks off with us, I had to send him to help his gardener friend out at one point because he was annoying me so much in which time together, but we had that flexibility, he didn't have to have two weeks paternity leave and then be back on site.

[00:11:55] Rebecca Alcock: So that's how it evolved and then sort of accidentally, so my mum then inherited a bungalow and we ended up doing a joint venture effectively with my mum. So we turned a two bed bungalow into a five bed detached house and that was, we sold that three years ago and it was the cash landing for that which made us think, right, what are we going to do with this?

[00:12:20] Rebecca Alcock: Because at that point, Jolly was still on site, so margin wise, costs, our costs were really, really low because he was doing a lot of the stuff. So, We, and my mom had made a really tidy profit, we then had some money, she had some money. We ended up then with our first angel investor. And I think that was around the time we got in contact with you to talk about HMOs because it was like, right, how do we make this more professional?

[00:12:47] Rebecca Alcock: How do we up the cash flow? And how do we sort of get a plan together to get Rebecca out of work? At that point, the plan wasn't actually to get me out of work, it was to give me the choice. And I always used to sit there, I really like going to work and I don't think I want to leave. But one of you having flexibility and the other person not, quickly becomes quite boring.

[00:13:09] Rebecca Alcock: So, I think that was the tipping point really. But we love to go on holiday, but when you're employed you've got an annual leave allowance. So, there's only so much holidaying Jolly can do on his own.

[00:13:21] Andy Graham: I think the word choice that you use is so important. And I regularly talk to people about this when we're looking at goal setting and targets and planning a business journey out.

[00:13:33] Andy Graham: One of the things that is often there right in people's noses is time and freedom and choice and flexibility. And sometimes actually it's a bit easier. To achieve that we let ourselves believe sometimes I think we convince ourselves that it has to look like a certain number of projects or we can't do it until there's a certain amount of income and actually I think for a lot of people if they really do want to do it and this is the big question if they really do want that choice most people could do that on just a couple of properties what that might do though is limit the ability to do subsequent.

[00:14:02] Andy Graham: Projects. And this is what I want to talk to you about today. So bring us to the here and now then Rebecca, obviously we've been transitioning to more HMOs as part of the business that you run on your portfolio. What changes has that involved and what sort of projects across the board are you guys doing now?

[00:14:20] Rebecca Alcock: Yes. So the first HMO we bought was, I mean, so As probably to backtrack a bit, so we're in Sheffield, there's a very strict Article 4 Direction and we only want to buy in that Article 4 Direction, so we can clearly buy outside of the Article 4 Direction and develop HMO, but for us, if we're buying HMOs in Sheffield, We want it to be within the Article 4 area, so you are limited in terms of you can't create, you know, take a two bed terrace and turn it into a six bed like in some other areas.

[00:14:53] Rebecca Alcock: So after this property, it was a five bed HMO and it's still a five bed HMO, we just did a light refurb on it. That has then progressed, so we wouldn't buy that now, we wouldn't buy something like that now, we don't regret buying it, but that's now moved on, so we've gradually done more and more, we tend to look for 3 to 4 bed HMOs in Sheffield that we can turn into 5 to 6 bed HMOs.

[00:15:19] Rebecca Alcock: Because then you still within, you don't have to go through planning anything like that. So that's how it's scaled up. So our most, if I look at our pipeline, we've got a three bed. We've just bought a booth, which is going to be a six bed. We also bought sort of a collection of bedsits, which are nearly finished.

[00:15:39] Rebecca Alcock: So now sort of three proper studios. Um, and two en suites and I've also split off the basement to make one bed flat. So we're being more creative than we were at the start in terms of building value.

[00:15:54] Andy Graham: And this type of strategy now and delivering this, this obviously requires a lot more capital, a lot more time because it's not just the refurbs.

[00:16:03] Andy Graham: It's actually all the time spent managing the legals. It's everything at the backend and the refinancing, and then all the tenants and all the management that comes with things as they are onboarded. And obviously. There is just now more projects in the mix. So how did you handle that and what plan did you have?

[00:16:22] Andy Graham: I think he talks about a two year plan that you almost had to get you ultimately to a position where you could also then come out of your, your job at the same time. It'd be interesting to hear what that plan looked like, Rebecca, and how you guys actually executed on it.

[00:16:36] Rebecca Alcock: So the initial plan. was to get to 20 HMO rooms. So that was the plan. And that was sort of quite evenly spaced across the two years. Within that though, from a financial perspective, obviously, so like the first property that we bought, we basically just parked 25 percent of the purchase price it, and you know, that, that was kind of, that's there for five years.

[00:17:05] Rebecca Alcock: So alongside that, we also did have capital raising strategies to enable us to do that because. It is quite capital intensive. So as part of that plan, we also started working with private investors, which again, I know is something we spoke about. And I remember we say, no, I think we're okay. And I'll actually think we're going to eat it.

[00:17:27] Rebecca Alcock: Well, so yeah, continuously buying, getting better at recycling. So By no means are we now pulling all our money out. We are still leaving chunks in, but we're no longer leaving 25 percent in on refinance. You know, we're managing to leave 10, 15 percent in, which obviously helps. And yet working with private investors to raise those funds so that we're not having to fund all the refunds and things like that. So yeah, that's all being part of that strategy.

[00:17:57] Andy Graham: It's very interesting. You hear you talk about that, almost the dual strategy that you've got. And actually there's a question that I want to ask you. And I know the answer to this, but I think for the benefit of our listeners, it's worth asking. And that is why are you buying HMOs within the article 4 direction?

[00:18:13] Andy Graham: If like you say, it's challenging to get all of the capital back out. Um, I know the answer to this, but I think it's always worth when I get the opportunity, reiterating it on the podcast.

[00:18:24] Rebecca Alcock: So it's not the done thing, is it?

[00:18:27] Andy Graham: No.

[00:18:27] Rebecca Alcock: It's not the done thing to buy a ready made HMO that you have to sink a load of money into. And for us, it's longevity, and it's for security of that asset, and it's for when we borrow. Any kind of commercial valuation would be about the same as a bricks and mortar valuation, and it's about having that security that that building that's going to be worth that for a long time and having as much sort of security as you can.

[00:18:54] Rebecca Alcock: Yeah, the areas in Sheffield that then the Article 4 direction is in, they are great areas just in terms of residential, so you've always got those options of if students disappear in 20 years completely. I don't want to be left. This is meant to be our income for the next 40 years. I want to make sure that it is so yeah, for us, it's about, yeah, the returns aren't as fantastic right now, but from a longevity perspective, looking forwards is my capital safe. That's why we're doing it.

[00:19:25] Andy Graham: Great to hear you say that and just be able to talk about this point on the podcast, because I couldn't agree more, as you know, that that is largely my strategy when it comes to the HMOs. I think you've got to have that very long sight on where you want to take things. And that's really tricky.

[00:19:41] Andy Graham: And especially in the early stages, when. The objective is primarily cashflow for most people and finding that balance and not overcommitting to cashflow or certain deals at the expense of what that might look like long term is something that I really, really try and make sure that my mentees understand because it would be very easy to just chase yield around the country and buy where things look the best on the paper.

[00:20:03] Andy Graham: But actually. When you look back at the goals and objectives, which are usually around time and choice and flexibility, that type of portfolio at some point in the future, probably doesn't give you that or as much of that as you want. And so some of it is a bit of a sacrifice in the short term for that long term benefit, but you guys have found a really good balance by.

[00:20:25] Andy Graham: Doing those sorts of projects alongside your capital creation projects. And I know Jake and Lucy have been on the podcast a number of times and they're mentors of ours at the roadmap. That's exactly what they do down in the Southwest, which is an incredibly expensive market, very restrictive for an article four direction.

[00:20:40] Andy Graham: And the keys I think that you've spoken about that allow you to do this have been obviously having the skills and experience, but also the access to capital and finance. Can you talk to us a little bit, Rebecca, about what you guys did differently to address that point? Because you did have for a period of time what you needed to do, the sorts of projects that you needed to do.

[00:20:59] Andy Graham: But obviously when you started to professionalise things and map out this plan, you must have identified that you were going to need more capital. So what was it that you actually did to bring that capital in?

[00:21:11] Rebecca Alcock: So we've done two major things. The first one is go out to private investors. So, now have a few relationships with professional investors who we can call on, who we have great relationships with, and I'll attribute that to my background.

[00:21:29] Rebecca Alcock: So I have found, and I talk to people quite a lot about how to make finance. For me, what really worked is that I'm a chartered accountant and our two largest investors are also chartered accountants because we speak the same language. So they want to know about the things that I am very comfortable talking about.

[00:21:46] Rebecca Alcock: So that's been a winning combination for us. So that's the first thing and that's made a massive difference. The second thing is that, so we decided this time last year that we were sitting on a lot of capital in our house, in our family home, so we actually sold that in January to free up a considerable amount of capital to then plough into the business for a year.

[00:22:09] Andy Graham: So this is a very unique idea and one that I knew you guys had done and you've done some incredible projects because I've seen them. Then we talk about the sacrifice that business owners need to often make and the reality that success is very rarely something that happens overnight. I think this is just a really incredible example of that.

[00:22:27] Andy Graham: But so I understand clearly, you guys sold your home, your family kind of residence that allowed you to crystallise a lot of money that you then prioritise into investing back into your assets to really, I suppose, accelerate the process. What did the compromise actually look like? I love these opportunities on the podcast to just keep it incredibly real.

[00:22:48] Andy Graham: And I feel like you're going to give us one, but you've got three kids and you and Jol, and you're running this business. What does that actually look like in reality?

[00:22:58] Rebecca Alcock: Okay, so, our house, we had done up, we'd done up back in the days when we were still on site, so you know, we'd taken it back to brick ourselves, we'd extended, it's in an affluent area of Sheffield, kind of assembly clutched, very popular family home, so we sold that.

[00:23:16] Rebecca Alcock: And we have moved into what is a one bedroom flat. It has a stud wall up in the middle of the bedroom, so it technically is two bedrooms, but it was a one bed flat. And there are the five of us, so we've got, the kids have got bunk beds and then another bed that sort of, you can't sit up in that bed because it's right under the eaves.

[00:23:37] Rebecca Alcock: We've got, our whole world is in the room I'm sitting in now. It's an old house that was converted into flats, so the living room is actually quite big. But it has a sofa, a dining table, a chest of drawers, a wardrobe, the kids stuff. It's very cramped, and we will have been in, by the time we move out, we'll have been here for a year.

[00:23:58] Rebecca Alcock: Because we do have plans to move out, definitely. I mean, the conversations that we had with people were really interesting when we decided to do this and I think it really depends on people's mindset, so we had kind of one lot of people that still think we're absolutely mad. They think that we've sort of sold our dream home, which it was a really lovely house, but it was never our dream home.

[00:24:22] Rebecca Alcock: I understand that that's relative for the individual. They think we're absolutely mad, don't understand it, makes no sense to them whatsoever. And then, there's the other people that just get it, and they're like, God, that's good, and you know, what a great lesson for the kids, which I'm really conscious of, you know, I want to make sure that they work hard and they know that they will live a privileged life, but it's because there has been sacrifice.

[00:24:48] Rebecca Alcock: So yeah, it's not ideal. It's horrible to be quite honest. And to top it all off, our two cats have just moved back in with us because we've been on holiday at my mum's, but they've now had to come back and live with us. So there are now seven of us in the flat.

[00:25:02] Andy Graham: Busy house. I mean, I don't think that there'll be any doubt at all that people listening to today's episode will understand.

[00:25:09] Andy Graham: The focus, I suppose, that you have given to your plan, this was always something that I enjoyed when I was working with you and Joel, it was so clear that you're going to be successful because you were so determined and prepared to make some really tough decisions, um, to take some short term pain for that long term gain.

[00:25:26] Andy Graham: And I suppose, actually, if I look back at my own story and journey, I did it perhaps in a different way, but still absolutely can identify where I took some massive sacrifices. There was several years where just worked from my room in my shared house. I took nothing out of the business because I couldn't afford to, otherwise I couldn't continue to invest.

[00:25:46] Andy Graham: I was trying to balance that with all of my physio work when I was still doing that. There was times when I was traveling 700 mile round trips from Cornwall just to get my portfolio off the ground in the first instance. And it's easy, I think, for people to overlook that stuff when they just see the great projects on Instagram, when they just see the nice house that you were most recently living in, but actually it often does take some of these really tough decisions and actually that can be the shortcut.

[00:26:10] Andy Graham: Sometimes there might be other ways. It might take a lot longer. You might never get there, but it's really. I think special to hear you talk about it so honestly, Rebecca, and I think a lot of people listening today will be seriously impressed by that level of commitment. So you've got the three kids in there and you've made this huge sacrifice whilst you continue to build the business and you eventually been able to make that transition out of work into the business full time.

[00:26:38] Andy Graham: What challenges have you had to overcome along the way to actually get to this? Surely every project hasn't gone exactly to plan. Surely the timelines have not always stuck to what they should have been. What sort of challenges have you had to go through to actually get here?

[00:26:56] Rebecca Alcock: So the majority of our challenges have been based around, it's always been very inconvenient that I've been at work.

[00:27:04] Rebecca Alcock: So, this is my baby, this is something that I have grown, and I am very good at dealing with stress, and I thrive in these kind of environments. And that's not necessarily the case for Jolly, but here we were with actually, it was Jolly left dealing with kids on a daily basis because I was the one at work.

[00:27:23] Rebecca Alcock: So, I basically have this great idea, right? Yeah, we can buy that and we'll do this and then we'll do this. Okay. Right. I'm off to work now. You sort that out. And that was the biggest challenge. And that is actually, that was the main thing that made me realise that I needed to leave work because I was holding the business back and we'd made all this sacrifice and all these plans.

[00:27:45] Rebecca Alcock: But the fact that I was still holding down a demanding job and only around early morning, evenings, weekends to then make decisions and action things that became really challenging and was slowing things down. So that's one of the big things. And then I think the other challenge that we've had is growing so quickly and not making changes to what we're doing fast enough.

[00:28:09] Rebecca Alcock: So it was two years ago that we said, right. We're growing too quickly now. Jolly, you're off the tools you need to project manage. And for a little bit of time, that made a huge difference. It meant that we could do more, we couldn't just have one project on at a time, we could have multiple. I mean, about six months ago, we had five major projects on at once.

[00:28:32] Rebecca Alcock: Well, project managing five major projects is also too much. So we're still, we've been playing catch up with that. So again, like, we've now had projects going forward, Jolly won't even be project managing, they'll be fully passed across to a build team, and he will be managing them. But that has been a huge challenge as well, obviously, getting to a point where we were dealing with five projects.

[00:28:55] Rebecca Alcock: all at once that we are doing all the subcontracting for that has been exceptionally challenging and yet it's just that not realising just being a bit behind your own growth before you do changes.

[00:29:08] Andy Graham: I think a lot of this stuff that you're describing can be really tough as well when you're dealing with it on your own and understanding when to make changes.

[00:29:16] Andy Graham: Sometimes when you're in the middle of it, it's really not that obvious, is it? When you should perhaps hire someone or when actually you should take a step back or when you need to put a new system or a process in place, or when actually you need to just do everything in a different way, maybe even do different types of projects, like slightly bigger projects that require a bit more at the front end, but give you a bit more at the backend.

[00:29:37] Andy Graham: So you've got some volume, but obviously you guys reached out and you kind of spoke to me and we'd worked together and did some mentorship. And I know that you guys do more networking and things. Now, what kind of benefits did you get from mentorship and networking and how has that influenced the business that you've gone on to build?

[00:29:54] Rebecca Alcock: So I'm a really big believer in it. If you don't know how to do something, the best way is to learn from somebody that's done it or is doing it very well. So I'm not a huge, I think textbook learning, there is a time and a place for it, but the majority of our learning has been done from other people. So for me, if you want to learn how to drive a car, you go to a driving instructor and they teach you because they can do it.

[00:30:23] Rebecca Alcock: And actually you could learn yourself, but it'll take you a lot longer and you're more likely to fail. So it's really obvious for me. And the investment element of it also doesn't particularly, that's just a part of it. I know for some people, they'll say, Oh, it's how much? Like, and for me, it's just a no brainer.

[00:30:43] Rebecca Alcock: Like, if you think about what the return on that investment could be. And I think, especially when you know, I know if I am going to pay somebody to help me with something and I'll meet them every two weeks or every month, I'll have done what I said because I pay for it. So I think it's that it's double whammy.

[00:31:03] Rebecca Alcock: You've got their knowledge, but you've also everybody needs accountability. Like it's really hard to motivate yourself. It's a lot easier if you've got a reason to be motivated. Well, I think it's a double whammy really on those two things. It's made a huge difference for us mentoring and also then being part of networks and communities.

[00:31:24] Rebecca Alcock: I find it so inspiring seeing people do not even what I want to do, because it might be more than I ever want to do, but just seeing people succeed, I think just makes you think, right, so what am I doing today to succeed? Like, what does my success look like? And what will I do? I don't think you can beat it. I think it's a must for anybody who wants to move forward.

[00:31:45] Andy Graham: What does your success look like, Rebecca? If you could describe it and that future vision, if it was successful, what would that look like to you?

[00:31:53] Rebecca Alcock: Taking things easy with things taken along in the background, doing what I want to do, exercising when I want to exercise, going on holiday whenever I want to. And actually, I don't care, I clearly need money to do that, so there is then a monetary value, but it is all about that time freedom. And about just being able to wake up and decide what I want to do.

[00:32:18] Andy Graham: I think what you described, Rebecca, and the business that you and Jol have built is a really great example of starting with the end in mind.

[00:32:25] Andy Graham: I know that when you first got started and did those initial projects, that wasn't the case. And that was just the seedling, but there was a point where you very clearly professionalise your business. And actually sat down and thought about what it is that you really wanted to achieve from it all and how you were going to do it.

[00:32:42] Andy Graham: You worked with the right people, you focused on execution. And actually what you talk about is the really simple stuff, like being able to exercise when you want and being able to go on holiday when you want, with the exception of perhaps school holidays and things like that. Again, I think it should reassure a lot of our listeners that it doesn't have to be rocket science.

[00:33:01] Andy Graham: It doesn't have to be a huge empire. It can be, if that's what you want it to be. It can just be a really great portfolio that, like you say, ticks along in the background, makes good money, but doesn't give you problems and headaches at the same time, doesn't require too much to get there, doesn't require too much risk to get there, and might take a little bit longer than maybe some alternative strategies.

[00:33:21] Andy Graham: But may not, but it's really interesting, I think, to hear you talk about it and describe it in the context of your wider story. I've got one or two more questions before we wrap up. There'll be a lot of investors listening to today's episode and no doubt being inspired by what you're talking about and what you've already achieved and what you're doing. Do you have any financial and practical tips for anyone scaling up a buy to let or HMO portfolio, Rebecca?

[00:33:45] Rebecca Alcock: So, I am not your traditional accountant, I think, which is why I was much more active when I was in house, kind of more of a business partnering role as opposed to in practice, just sort of. Smashing out tax computation, things like that.

[00:34:01] Rebecca Alcock: I think it's really easy to get bogged down in the detail. And clearly you need to know the numbers, but I think you also, and I think it's scary at the start, but if you are really, really negative on everything, so, and if you are overly pessimistic, you will never get a deal to work and there is a time for that.

[00:34:19] Rebecca Alcock: Yes, things need stress testing, but if you are looking at buying your first buy to let, and you're putting in that the interest rate is 8%. You're never going to get it to work and you're never going to buy anything. So I think it's just making sure that you are pragmatic and realising that those numbers with refurbs and things like that, they are fluid.

[00:34:39] Rebecca Alcock: They need buffers in them. And if you want to kind of get stuck in the minute detail, you'll just go nowhere because it's a never ending task and it'll move anyway, because. The budget always moves, whether it's up or down, things always change. And I think just leaning into that flexibility with numbers is a big thing to kind of avoid you just freezing and actually. Getting to the stage where you actually do something

[00:35:05] Andy Graham: Great advice. Couldn't agree more. And I think that it's the sort of advice that comes from the experience of actually running businesses and not just actually investing in property. I think there is a real difference between just being a property investor, just being a landlord and actually being a real business owner, which you obviously are.

[00:35:21] Andy Graham: Do you have any tips for staying resilient and focused despite all of these distractions, you know, kids, a job, other things in life that are certainly much more enjoyable than maybe marching down to see the progress on the latest site only to find that the builders haven't turned up. Any tips and advice?

[00:35:38] Andy Graham: Because people do find it difficult, Rebecca, and I think people do often struggle with motivation that ultimately stops them getting to where they want and achieving their ambition.

[00:35:47] Rebecca Alcock: The main two things for me for resilience are making sure that I know I'm running my own race. So focusing on me and social media is great if you can use it in a positive way and you can use it for inspiration but there is no point me comparing myself to a single man with no children because everyone has the same 24 hours in the day but a lot of my 24 hours are used up looking after three children and our goals are different and that's fine.

[00:36:20] Rebecca Alcock: So I think If you know that you are aiming to your thing and you have got a plan, then you can be resilient in kind of any roadblocks with that. I think that's really important for me. The other thing is I always like make sure I've got something to look forward to. So we are always on holiday, like the minute school finishes, we're, we're straight on that holiday.

[00:36:42] Rebecca Alcock: And do we sit and do absolutely nothing? No. Am I on my laptop every day? Yes. Is that fine? Yeah, I'm happy with that because that's how I'd rather do things. But from a resilience perspective and especially when I was still working, that was the thing that kept me going because it just let me, recharge a little bit.

[00:37:01] Rebecca Alcock: And you do have to look after yourself. Like you can't go at full pelt all the time. You do actually have to make sure that you take the time. We're really good at, we prioritise exercise, we prioritise sleep, things like that, which will build your resilience and actually, how you can deal with things. If you're not looking after yourself, then something happens and you're going to find it a lot more difficult to deal with.

[00:37:24] Andy Graham: I think my interpretation, Rebecca, of what you've shared with us today and knowing you guys well, and being a part of that story, that journey that you've gone through. I think what is incredibly successful to me is just the balance that you've achieved. And I think for so many people listening, they'll be nodding along thinking that's absolutely what I want to do.

[00:37:44] Andy Graham: I just want the balance to be able to put my foot down in the business when I need to, and when it matters most, but also be able to go away on holiday with the kids and not feel guilty about doing it. And actually that is the reason why we're building the businesses in the first place, finding balance to actually enjoy what you do on a day to day basis.

[00:38:00] Andy Graham: And still prioritise your health and get out to the gym or go for a run or train or whatever it is. So I have no doubts whatsoever that this will be an incredibly inspiring episode. And I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of people that want to get in contact with you. So I think that that's probably a perfect place to actually round up.

[00:38:16] Andy Graham: It's been a real pleasure having you on the show. Rebecca has been great to catch up. It's actually just great watching you guys and your business blossom and seeing you on all the nice holidays, which does make me a little bit jealous sometimes, although I shouldn't be too jealous because. To be fair, I've had my own fair share of holidays in the last year and beyond.

[00:38:33] Andy Graham: But for anyone listening, Rebecca, perhaps they're interested in maybe investing with you. Perhaps they're just, you know, they just want to learn a little bit more. Perhaps they just kind of want you in their network because you're a good person who knows a lot about property. How best can they contact you?

[00:38:45] Rebecca Alcock: So either on Instagram, we are @jollypropertyjp. I'd recently changed it. It used to be that it was myself and Jolly on the Instagram, but he doesn't go on Instagram. And I kept having people messaging, thinking they were talking to him because everyone assumes that you're always talking to a man, if in doubt.

[00:39:02] Rebecca Alcock: So it's now very clearly just me on the Instagram. So yeah, it must be on Instagram. Or my LinkedIn, which is Rebecca Alcock, getting more active on there as well.

[00:39:12] Andy Graham: Well, you should probably prepare to be inundated. I suspect, but Rebecca, it has been an absolute pleasure. I'm so pleased to see how well you guys are doing.

[00:39:21] Andy Graham: And I'm so pleased to hear how much you're enjoying it. And despite the fact that you are perhaps not in the dream home at the minute, because you've made this huge sacrifice. I have got no doubts whatsoever that it won't be too long before you are there and I can't wait to see that as well. But thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story and thank you for inspiring no doubt all of our community.

[00:39:42] Rebecca Alcock: Thanks, I really enjoyed it.

[00:39:50] Andy Graham: That's it for today's episode, guys. Thank you for tuning in. Now, don't forget that if you want to level things up, make sure you head over to thehmoroadmap.co.uk. We've got one of our biggest sales ever on at the moment, and you can take advantage of everything that we have got for offer inside the HMO roadmap.

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[00:41:24] Andy Graham: So go and grab that offer before it disappears, just head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk. I promise you will not regret it. That's it guys. Thank you once again. And don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO podcast.