Renters Rights Bill - Essential Changes And How To Prepare

In this episode, we’ll discuss the significant changes to the Renter's Rights Bill, particularly focusing on the amendments made by the Labour party - the abolition of Section 21 evictions, the introduction of rent controls, and the implications for landlords, especially those operating in the student housing market. 

Topics covered in this episode:

• 03:05 - Key Amendments to the Renter's Rights Bill
• 05:50 - Abolition of Section 21 Evictions
• 09:00 - Rent Controls and Health Standards
• 11:47 - Evictions for Personal Reasons and Rent Repayment Orders
• 15:01 - Impact on Student HMO Landlords
• 17:50 - Challenges and Opportunities for Landlords

Episode mentioned #257 Important Update For HMO Investors About The Renters Reform Bill

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.686)

In today's episode, I'm going to bring you an update on the renter's rights bill. Formally of course, the renter's reform bill before Labour got their hands in it. As we speak, they're currently chewing it up in parliament and at some point next year, they are going to spit it out at us. Now, I'm not going to sugar coat it. This doesn't look good for us, but we are going to have to adapt. We need to know what it is and we need to know what to do. So this is a very important episode. I know that this isn't an exciting episode. I do try and make the podcast fun, but you need to know this stuff. look, I've been doing my research. I've been figuring out all the amendments that labor have made to this bill. I'm going to share the most important stuff with you today. So grab yourself a strong drink and please sit back, relax, and at least try to enjoy today's episode of the HMO podcast.

Hey guys, it's Andy here and we're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment. But before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

We've also got guest workshops added every single month, we've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics, we've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you, we've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from, and we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:40.334)

Okay, welcome back gang. So today I'm going to bring you an update on the renter's rights bill. Specifically, I'm going to highlight, I'm going to pick out the amendments that Labour have made to the bill, of which none of them, unfortunately, are favourable. But it's important, we've got to know this stuff as investors and landlords. It's really important that we know this stuff. Now, the bill is currently going through parliament again. It's just had its second reading.

There might be a few amendments before it makes its way into law next year. With Labour's majority, I think it's very unlikely that there'll be many changes and if there are, that any of those changes will be significant. So look, I would happily kind of eat my own words. I'd like to see things change between now and then, but I think it's very, very unlikely. So I think it's probably about as good a time as any for you and I to tackle all of these amendments that Labour have made and start thinking about what we're actually going to do. 

Now look, the first thing to say is that today's episode isn't a breakdown of the entire bill. And honestly, most of it hasn't changed. There are only a few things that have really changed. It's just unfortunate that they are probably the most important things. If you want to go back and listen to the episode I did, of breaking down the majority of the bill, it's episode 257. I recorded it in May and honestly, 80, 90 % of it is still pertinent.

So today I really am just going to focus on the changes that Labour have made. I'm going to highlight the amendments. I think there are six key changes that we really need to be aware of. And I'm going to try and keep this as specific as I can to us as HMO landlords. There is more stuff in the bill. There's a lot of detail in the bill that you've got different types of tenants or you let other types of properties. You might want to think more closely about some of that stuff as well. So today I'm just kind of narrowing it down to the six key things that I think will really impact us as HMO investors and landlords. 

So are you ready for a little bit of fun on the show? Let's start with the abolition of section 21 evictions. Now, obviously this idea was in the previous bill. So the abolition of section 21 evictions, we knew it was coming, but it's the detail around this that has changed. The conservative approach was a planned and I suppose gradual phasing out of section 21, no fault evictions.

Andy Graham (04:55.362)

Delaying the full implementation until the court system was reformed as well. And that was a really key and very important part. A lot of critics argued that this would slow down the protections for landlords, but obviously as landlords, we were quite vocal about the fact that look, this is, it's important to reform the court system. This needs to take time. It needs to be digested. The conservatives listened to that. They amended their original bill and that was basically how the final proposal was going through and it was going to be passed into law wasn't it before everything went to hell in a handbasket. 

Labour's approach is slightly different. Labour have come in with a bit of a sledgehammer approach. They are immediately proposing to abolish Section 21, no fault evictions, for both new and existing tenants and they want to provide instant security to tenants without waiting for broader court reform. So this really is like taking a sledgehammer to a nail.

The irony is that this bill was meant to be a fairer rental sector for all. That was kind of what the tagline for the bill was. That has been kind of lost somewhere along the way because there's nothing about that that is fair for landlords at all. I mean, labour know that the court system is an absolute mess at the minute. So it's just pretty disastrous actually, the idea that we can't just evict people for no fault. I feel quite strongly that if I bought the house, I saved up for it. I've earned that.

I should be able to remove a tenant if I want. And all of the data says that pretty much no landlords do that. Anyway, who evicts good tenants? Nobody, right? So anyway, this point really, really frustrates me, but that is it. That is the labor approach to it at the minute. And that is almost definitely how it is going to pass through parliament and into law. So that is point one. The second piece of kind of legislation that I want to highlight that was amended is around rent controls and rental bidding. The conservative approach was to limit rent increases to once a year. I actually thought that was perfectly fine. I don't know anybody in fact that has ever done it more than that. 

Anyway, tenants had the right to challenge excessive increases. I mean, they've always had that right. They've always been able to take it to tribunal anyway, but I think they're proposing to make it a little bit easier and a little bit clearer. But the bill didn't address rental bidding. Now, let me know in the community about this, but is this something that you experienced where you are and your location? I've never experienced rental bidding.

Andy Graham (07:17.602)

I've got a feeling this might just be a London thing. I don't actually agree with it. I don't like the idea that agents and landlords are kind of really using that scarcity factor to drive rents up when it's in such sort of scarcity. But at the end of the day, I think this is a bit of a moot point across most of the country. Labour's approach is to restrict the rent increases to once a year as the Conservatives were, but they also want to completely ban rental bidding, preventing landlords from accepting offers above the advertised rent. 

So let's see how that goes. I think at the end of the day, if landlord thinks they're going to get a higher rent and the property is available on the open market, they'll just advertise it very, very high. And if they don't get the interest, then they'll just start to drop it. This for me just seems like a mountain out of a molehill. But anyway, that's the second thing I just wanted to highlight.

Health standards and AWOBS law then. So the conservative approach on this one was to introduce a decent home standard for private rentals, but the conservative approach didn't extend to AWOBS law, which, how can I explain this? That sort of mandates quick actions on serious health hazards like mold and stuff like that, but it really sort of within the kind of social sector. They kind of weren't proposing to extend it to the private rental sector, but the labor approach is different. They do want to extend AWOBS law to the private rental sector. They want to make sure that landlords are required to fix hazards like mold in strict timeframes, such as in maybe 14 days. And in addition, they want to be able to enforce decent home standards. Now I personally, again, didn't have an issue with decent home standards. I think for many of us, we're creating HMOs, we're licensed, actually the standards of our houses are pretty good and actually the market almost dictates that we generally need to keep things at a pretty good standard. 

I appreciate that that is not the case everywhere though. So I personally didn't have an issue with the decent home standard. And actually I don't have an issue with extending a OBS law to the private rental sector either. I do have some massive concerns though about how on earth this is going to be enforced. And of course you hear things like mold and you hear things like the law and timeframes and you can just, you can see it straight away. Can't you? How many of us have had mold in the houses?

Andy Graham (09:30.424)

that has been a direct consequence of tenants behavior, not opening windows, drying clothes in the house on racks, having very hot showers and not cooking with the fan on, turning bathroom fans off, all of that stuff. Yes, there are examples where there is fundamental issues with damp and mold and black spots formation and things like that, but I can just see this being so open to interpretation. I have no idea who's going to enforce this. And I can just see how much of a problem this is going to be already. I actually think this is one that as HMO landlady, we really want to get ahead of. If you've been doing this anytime at all, you will have definitely had your tenants complaining about mold. And it's likely that you will have said, look, this is what you can do X, Y, and Z. It's all you and your behavior. And you need to follow this advice and guidance. 

And lo and behold, that usually fixes the problem, but you've been doing this long enough and you've managed enough tenants and houses, you will find that some tenants really will use anything at all to try and recoup something financially, to try and get out of a tenancy, to try and be a problem, whatever it might be. And mold and that sort of thing has always been something that tenants have tried to hang the hat on. Now, I'm not saying that across the board, aren't serious issues with this. Of course, that are, and that is why AWOBS law exists. 

But I think in our industry and the HMOs where there are a lot of tenants, there are a lot of people breathing, living, cooking, having showers, mold and condensation and mold formation is a byproduct and it needs to be managed. And I think there are very proactive measures that we can take. Now you can go to different lengths, but I would really suggest you start considering some of the stuff that you can do. There are positive air pressure systems that help push moisture out of homes, there's other systems that kind of bring heat in to try and avoid condensation. There are different vents that you can put on windows, mechanical extraction from each room. There are different systems. Some of it is much more expensive than others, but I do think that with this becoming a law and an extension of an existing law, I think that this is something that you want to really be aware of. Hopefully you don't have houses where this is an issue, but...

Andy Graham (11:47.168)

In my experience, it is not always the property, it is often just the tenants, but it presents in the same way. And I can see this just being really, really tricky for us, especially if it comes into law and they try and put some sort of enforcement measure in place. So anyway, want to think about just so you're aware, I've always done this in my houses. I've always installed mechanical ventilation systems. Some of them are pretty expensive. They run continuously. They're humanist at controlled.

They go in communal areas and in bedrooms where you've got fire doors, where that airflow is limited. It really does help, but it is expensive. Ideally, it's the sort of thing that you want to do when you're refurbishing properties. So maybe one to have a think about alongside stuff like EPCs and trying to improve your EPC standard. Moving on then, the fourth amendment that I want to highlight today in the renter's rights bill is evictions for personal reasons.

Abolition of section 21 evictions, that is just happening. We are no longer going to be able to remove tenants who haven't been at fault about anything. We will be able to remove tenants who are at fault if they've not paid their rent or there are antisocial behavior grounds that all still needs to be ironed out. There are a few other reasons why we are going to be able to ask tenants to leave properties and evict tenants. These are sort under the personal reasons at the minute.

Now I'm not going to go through all of these because there are loads and loads and loads. It's kind of overwhelming actually how many different reasons there are, but some of the obvious ones are landlords selling at their house or landlords moving in or landlords wanting to move family members in or doing improvement works. But I think you're gonna have to prove those improvement works. So, well, I think it's one of those things that I would suspect there is a way around it. I'm not condoning that, but I suspect there probably will be. However, I think there already has been discussion around the detail that would require evidence and proof. So let's wait and see what comes out of that. 

But look, the conservative approach to this was that we would be required to give two months notice if we wanted to reclaim a property for personal reasons, such as selling or moving. And those grounds were going to be allowed to be used after six months of a tenancy. So tenants moved in, if they've been in for six months and we decide that we want to sell the house or move in or do something else under the new grounds for possession, which like I said, is quite extensive.

Andy Graham (14:04.866)

We would have to wait six months and then give two months notice, but labour's approach is quite different. Labour wants to extend the notice period to four months and they want to prohibit landlords from using the grounds during the first 12 months of a tenancy. So they just want to offer tenants even more stability. What I'm not totally clear on, we need to check is whether or not that four month notice can be given on month eight and then at the end of month 12, that tenant can be asked to leave or made to leave or either actually that notice can't be served until month at the minute. That's how I'm reading it. 

So anyway, it could be a long time if you want to get back in and do something different with your property. mean, can you imagine something goes on elsewhere in your business or in your personal life and you decide you want to sell a property, but you can't because there's a law that says you have to wait 12 months for a tenancy to expire. I mean, I just think this is utterly ludicrous stuff, but look, I'm not here to just shout from my soapbox. I think the reality is this is stuff that we need to think about, isn't it?

Okay. Moving on then the fifth change that I want to highlight to you is around rent repayment orders. This is when basically if there are grounds that landlords can be made to repay a certain amount of rent, there are various things and scenarios where you may have to do this. Now the conservatives weren't proposing to do anything different with this. The law existed around this already. The labor approach is a little bit different. They want to extend rent repayment orders to cover more offenses, including repeat violations. 

They want to double maximum repayment periods from 12 months to 24 months. I mean, that is significant. There are some landlords who just ignored the guidance. And to be honest, if that is you and landlords who doing that, then I think they should be prosecuted. And I've got no issues whatsoever with this being doubled because I make sure that I do everything right. And I'm sure you do too. You're here listening to the podcast, you are learning, you are trying to improve your business.

But it's just something to be aware of exactly how this is all going to be enforced. I'm not sure. Now the sixth change that I want to highlight in this bill is the one that I think is the most concerning for student HMO operators. You might've heard me banging on about this a lot when the first, when the initial bill was being drafted. And actually the conservatives conceded on this to an extent. So just for clarity now, Labour are proposing that section 21 has been abolished.

Andy Graham (16:25.442)

tenants on the other hand, will be able to give notice to leave with two months notice at any point in that tenancy. The conservative version was going to be the case that tenants would have to fulfill the first four months of their tenancy agreement. And then at any point after that, they could give two months notice. So in effect, it was still a six month minimum tenancy. Labour getting rid of that altogether tends to be able to give two months notice. Now this has quite an impact on student operators who obviously operate within a very cyclical model. And understandably, there was a lot of lobbying about this because the student market is a huge industry. It's not just HMO landlords, it's managers, it's industries and service providers that support the student accommodation market. It's the students themselves who have to plan around this. So it was a really ill thought proposal in the first instance, but the Conservatives conceded to some extent on it. Let me just kind of highlight what these changes are though.

I remind you what they were in the last version. The conservative approach was to make purpose-built student accommodations. So that is student accommodation that has been designed specifically for the use of students. It got that sort of planning permission. It's the big blocks in the city centre. They were going to be exempt from the tenancy reform. So they were going to be exempt from the abolition of section 21. And that was important because what that meant was that the operators of student buildings could serve notice on those tenants to make sure that they left in time for the new tenants. Remember, it's cyclical in line with the September academic start every year so that they could actually move in and would have a house or a flat or a studio to move into. So it was an important piece of legislation. Frustratingly, the conservatives didn't extend that to off-street student accommodation, which is basically HMOs. That was really frustrating. And despite all the lobbying and all of the hard work, the conservatives themselves didn't concede on that. 

However, there were some concessions granted to student landlords by the conservatives. They did recognise that student landlords still needed to operate within the cyclical nature of the academic year. And there was a slight exemption to the abolition of section 21. They were going to be able to serve the notice at a certain period in time. So they were going to be able to serve it within, I think it was sort of April and

Andy Graham (18:47.65)

June or something like that. I can't quite remember. So that they still were going to be allowed to make sure that tenants left, but it was limited. However, student tenants in off-street HMOs were going to be allowed to give notice as per the amended sort of departure terms. So they would in fact still have been able to give notice at six months in a student HMO. And that was a problem for landlords because

If you had a student HMO and your tenants move in for six months, and then they decide on the six months at end of that six months to move out, that property is potentially empty for the rest of the year. Now it was good news that if they decided to stay, the student landlords will be able to serve a notice, making sure that they do at least move out before the next tenants move in. But the fact that they can move out was still a real challenge. And I spoke to you guys on the podcast about some ideas to maybe mitigate the impact that that could have, but it would be pretty disastrous for student landlords. 

There's very little else that you can do with a student HMO if tenants decide to move out. If you use it as a single let, you'll almost definitely lose your planning status, C4, if you're in an article four direction. So that's a nightmare. It's not usually the sort of accommodation that suits to Airbnb and probably do the same as well. You can just left out strike and you've got new tenants who need to move in by a certain date. So just really disastrous, but it's got even worse now labor have got their hands in it. 

So labour's approach maintains that same exemption for PBSA that they're exempt from that abolition of section 21 and they can continue to offer fixed term tenancies to students. So they can rent to students for a fixed period of nine months or 10 months or 12 months, whatever it is. And those students can't give notice during that period. That obviously hasn't been extended to off-street HMOs, to student HMOs. And even more frustratingly, tenants now can terminate with two months notice at any time, that's the case, you're underlayment in this bill, any tenant can give two months notice at any point and they are not making any concessions at the minute, so there are no proposals to make any concessions for this in student HMOs. So now students could move in and after two months they could give notice. This is potentially pretty disastrous. Now I think it's unlikely in most circumstances that students would do this, but there is definitely going to be

Andy Graham (21:06.006)

an element of this happening up and down the country. My best guess is what will happen is that the student landlords will have to get much better and much more tolerant of accommodating swaps. So some tenants, so it's quite normal for five or six tenants to sign up for a house a year later when they're all ready to move in, actually someone's circumstances have changed or someone's fallen out and they want to remove someone from a tenancy, but potentially swap somebody else in because they still want to live in the house and the rest of them still want to go to university.

That's frustrating. It's time consuming. It's expensive because you've got to accommodate that change, repay deposits, update tenancy agreements and all of that jazz. I think there's going to be a large element of juggling tenancy swaps now, possibly even up to about a third of all tenancies. I think it is realistic. I think that there will be a good portion of tenancies that just do.

Unfortunately, not make the full 12 months and tend and some student landlords will quite simply be left with vacant properties. And I think that this is just going to be an issue and something we're going to have to shoulder. Ultimately, I think tenants are going to pay for this. I think it might take some time to trickle through, but I think that we will find a way of increasing the rents and maybe offsetting some of that risk somehow. I've not got into all of that detail just yet.

But I think that that is definitely a risk. And then inevitably some tenants will be absolutely fine. And none of this stuff will matter because they want to live in the house and they live in the house for the duration. There are some things that if you're a student landlord, you could already be doing. Now, if you rent September to September, I would highly, highly recommend you start thinking about renting July to July because it's those summer months, isn't it? When they've finished their exams, that they are much more likely to decide to leave the house. 

What's the point in paying for the bills and paying the rent if none of them are gonna be living there. So a couple of months before July, when they've all finished their exams, they'll be giving notice. If you bring your tenancies forwards and do a July to July cycle, actually with their exams being in May, it's much more likely that the students will need to stay in that accommodation until May. And obviously who's gonna give up, who's gonna hand their notice in at the very beginning of a tenancy if it does start in July. They'll probably just actually accept it.

Andy Graham (23:16.492)

and shoulder the cost of doing it, renting a property from through July and August, even if they're not going to live there. And that's what happens now. I mean, that's just the standard, right? In reality, most tenants move from one house to the next. They put all the belongings there and quite happy with that. So that is a huge piece of advice I would suggest you start thinking about now. If you're not already in a July to July cycle and you're a student landlord, I would recommend you move into that cycle ASAP. There'll be a bit of juggling, but I think it's going to be a really, really important one. 

So there we are. They are kind of the key changes guys. So I think the biggies for me are obviously section 21's have been abolished, but tenants will now be able to give two months notice at any point. I think that's pretty major. Let's just think about how that could potentially impact HMO operators. Well, if you were in a rent-to-rent business, that's pretty scary. If tenants can all of a sudden give two months notice, you've got a lot less security, a lot greater risk.

And that needs to be factored in when you're doing deals and negotiating with landlords. What if, for example, you have one bad tenant, that one tenant upsets everybody in the house and it's not the sort of stuff that you can serve them notice on the grounds of, let's say, antisocial behavior, but it is just frustrating stuff. They're upsetting other people. They're just being a bit of a nuisance. If you can't serve them a notice because section 21 have been abolished, everybody else in the house might move out. And if they all move out and that one individual stays, that's a real problem for us and something that we need to give a huge amount of thought to. 

I think the way that we manage our tenants, particularly difficult tenants, how we manage problems, I think we're to have to get better at that than ever, because this is a big risk that I see. I think if you're a student landlord, obviously I've highlighted some of the issues with tenants now being able to potentially give two months notice at any point, get into that July to July cycle. But one of the things that as a student landlord, you may have done is buy HMO, do a refurbishment, put some professional tenants in it while you bridge into an academic cycle and then can roll forwards with student tenants. 

That's now going to be very difficult because you're not going to be able to get professional tenants in and then confidently remove them from the house. You are not going to able to serve them a notice. You're not going be able to force them to leave. Historically, on so many occasions, I've refurbished a property. It's fallen, completion of that refurb is falling mid cycle. So we've filled the house with some professional tenants. They've been really, really happy with

Andy Graham (25:37.74)

a short term tenancy agreement, something like six months. But now you're not going to be able to do that. And there's a huge amount of risk because if you can't get them out of the house, but you've separately signed a student tenancy agreement with a new group of incoming students, what on earth do you do? So look guys, there are some tough changes in this bill. And I think that on the most part, they are going to come through. I'm hoping and praying that there is some softening on some of this stuff.

But I think if there is, it'll be few and far between. And I don't think there'll be much softening on it at all, if I'm really honest. So we need to get ahead of this. We need to acknowledge that this is going to be a challenge and we can't just expect to continue doing the same thing and the results to be the same. The outcome is going to be different if we don't deal with this stuff. Now, a bit of positive advice, a bit of reassurance perhaps. 

Look, like anything, challenges bring opportunity. I think that this is going to be a decisive moment in our industry. I think a lot of people, a lot of landlords simply won't be able to step up to the mark. They won't want to step up to the mark. I think there's a generation of landlords now reaching an age. They've made a lot of money in property. Actually, do they want to go through all of this? Do they want all of the hassle of this? I think more and more so we are going to be seeing landlords come to the market and sell their properties. 

Now, if you're prepared to professionalise your business, if you're prepared to take this stuff on the chin, do something about it, find ways to be better and be more profitable elsewhere, then you could flourish. actually think that this is a huge opportunity for landlords who want to become a professional service. The sector is professionalising, it's happening before our eyes. The big banks are getting into this industry. And I think that if you can follow that model, if you can build your business in that way, some of those opportunities will come to you as well. And gradually, these issues and challenges, they will settle. 

Everything will just equal out a little bit more and it will be a distant memory, but you've got to get there. And that's going to take, I think the best part of three to five years to really kind of get to a new normal. And that's assuming nothing else changed in the future, which it may do. But look, that would be my advice. Don't ignore this stuff, but don't panic too much. Be proactive, prepare for it. Have some sort of contingency in place in case things don't quite go to plan. It's going to be a good idea to have a bit of cash in the bank.

Andy Graham (28:02.038)

over the next couple of years, just in case. Don't clear out the bank account at the end of every month. Don't draw everything out, just in case you do have any issues. I think it's more important than ever that these sorts of things we're doing, we're thinking more like responsible business owners. But look, I'd love to hear what you think about this. If you're not a member of the HMO community, it's our free group on Facebook. Come on over, join the community. If you're already a member, let us know what you think about this. Tell me what you're proposing to do. Tell me what your concerns are. Have I missed anything? 

I'm sure I have, but it's a great place to come and have conversations about this. Look, the good news is it's not just you, it's all of us and we are in this together and we'll do what we can to help each other. If you are investing in HMOs, if you want to level things up, then make sure you do check out theHMOroadmap.co.uk. Everything you need to know to start and scale and systemise your business is in there. And trust me, with all of this looming change to legislation in the air, it has never been more important to make sure you're doing everything else you possibly can to drive efficiency through your business and make it as profitable as you possibly can and to save as much time elsewhere in your business. 

All of that information, advice, guidance, the resources, the examples, the case studies from our community members is all there inside the HMO roadmap, ready to help you on your journey. So go and check it out if you haven't already. That is about it for today's episode though, guys. I'm sorry it wasn't an exciting episode. I'm sorry it wasn't a particularly fun episode, but I hope more than anything it has been a valuable episode. It's complicated stuff. Some of it is enough to make you not want to do this, but stick with it. I certainly am because I think at the end of the day, if you are prepared to commit and consistently perform at the highest level, if you are prepared to professionalise your business, then I think there will be opportunities for you. That's it guys. Thank you again for tuning in today. And don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO podcast.