Ben Beadle Shares His Thoughts On A New Government & How Investor Can Still Thrive In 2024 And Beyond

In this episode, I'm joined by Ben Beadle, Chief Executive of the NRLA (National Residential Landlords Association), representing over 100,000 landlords across England and Wales.

With 20 years of experience as a landlord and senior roles at Places for People and TDS, Ben is a prominent figure in the housing sector and media.

In this insightful conversation, we’ll cover:

• The challenges and opportunities in the private rented sector.
• The role of private landlords in the housing crisis and the need for a balanced approach to housing solutions.
• The importance of providing a voice for landlords and advocating for their interests.
• The impact of regulation on landlords and the necessity of professional support and compliance.
• Ben’s thoughts on the future of the sector and the need for collaboration with elected representatives.

You won’t want to miss this insightful chat with Ben Beadle as we explore the possible upcoming changes in the government.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short term investment plan soon became a long term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover their tips, tricks, and hacks. The ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio.

[00:00:40] Andy Graham: Today I'm joined by Ben Beadle, who is of course the CEO of the NRLA. Who better to ask the questions that I've got about the current state of the PRS? What a new government could mean for investors and landlords up and down the country. What challenges lie ahead? Ben is probably better connected to the people making the changes in legislation than anybody else I know.

[00:00:59] Andy Graham: So this is for sure going to be a very, very interesting conversation. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO podcast. Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to to the podcast in just a moment. But before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap.

[00:01:18] Andy Graham: Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:01:42] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:01:57] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk now. And come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:02:21] Andy Graham: Hi Ben. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today.

[00:02:23] Ben Beadle: Andy, a great pleasure. Good to see you.

[00:02:25] Andy Graham: Good to see you again. It wasn't that long ago that we were together. Of course, you were a judge at the HMO awards. And I should say, actually, As by coincidence, you judged the category, so the best content provider, which we were the sort of incredibly gracious winners of, which we're so grateful for. So thank you, Ben.

[00:02:42] Ben Beadle: It's amazing how far a brown envelope with a bit of cash goes in. And I'm about to bring your score down by appearing on your podcast. So there we go. Get my revenge.

[00:02:50] Andy Graham: Uh, no, Ben, I mean, we met briefly. You might not remember the HMO Awards, uh, a couple of years previous. And between sort of then and now an awful lot has happened and you, I would say we're kind of really at the front of the campaign against the renters reform bill, which I think is a really good place for us to start this conversation today. But before we do, I'm sure a lot of our listeners will know about you, Ben, and what you do, but perhaps for some of them who don't, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Your background as a landlord and then your kind of role, um, in NRLA.

[00:03:26] Ben Beadle: Yeah, with pleasure, Andy. So I'm the first and foremost, the landlord. I've been a landlord despite my youthful and beautiful looks for over 20 years. I'm starting to get little gaps in my hairline to prove it. I've always worked in housing.

[00:03:40] Ben Beadle: I started off in, in lettings and property management. I joined the deposit scheme in 2008 TDS, where I was doing sort of casework stuff. I then went on to head up membership, become customer service director. So I'm used to working with lots of agents and landlords and kind of see things from various vantage points.

[00:04:01] Ben Beadle: I also headed up the complaints and risk process. I was dealing a lot with tenants and we were processing at the time, 15,000 adjudications a year. So it was a serious operation, set up the schemes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. And I left just as we were appointed. A custodial scheme in, in England, I then joined places for people, big housing association where I was looking after some of the biggest corporate landlords in the UK.

[00:04:27] Ben Beadle: We have 22,000 homes on the, on the management. So, some of your high street landlords like Ladbrokes, Tesco, British Heart Foundation, those were my clients, and also the Wellcome Trust. And I also looked after some build to rent units in Liverpool at the Keele. So I had offices in Scotland, Milton Keynes, Bath, central London, and Leeds.

[00:04:48] Ben Beadle: So it was a big, big operation. And after sort of two or three years, there was rumors going around of the NLA and the RLA merging. And I had a chat at a housing conference with the then chair, Alan Ward, who suggested I put my hat in the ring. And that was astonishingly five and a half years ago. And so I haven't really had a chance to look back since it's been seat of the pants.

[00:05:12] Ben Beadle: And my role at the NRLA really is predicated on giving landlords a voice, a sensible voice, a pragmatic voice to power, but also about providing great services and leveraging our size to get the best possible deals, the best possible products for our members and to talk up the work that they do. I'm sure there's lots of people that would like me to do things differently, but membership has grown 35 percent since the merger, since I've taken over, we've acquired different businesses like Safe2, the property compliance business.

[00:05:43] Ben Beadle: We're cooking on gas when it comes to training and accreditation, and I've obviously kind of branched out on commercial services. We've got over 50 partnerships now. So my job is to keep everything, everything together. And we've got, I think, 140 people on the payroll. So it's now a very significant operation.

[00:06:02] Ben Beadle: And as I say, it's predicated on making sure that we speak truth to power, but always that we're in the room to be able to convey the views of our members.

[00:06:12] Andy Graham: And am I right in thinking, Ben, you have sort of in the region of about 100,000 members? 108, 00 now. 108, wow. It's a huge number of people and a big organisation and a lot of, a lot of responsibility.

[00:06:24] Andy Graham: I mean, I am staggered sometimes to see how active you are and are able to remain. And the last couple of years have been a bit of a whirlwind. When you took this role, decided to embark on it, did you foresee perhaps how turbulent the last few years would be, I mean, you've been in the role for five years and it's been pretty bonkers.

[00:06:41] Andy Graham: So it just says a lot, a lot to the investor. I can only imagine from your seat, what that has felt like. Did you foresee that the way that it's kind of panned out and being as challenging as it has?

[00:06:51] Ben Beadle: I was young, naive and without a care in the world. And if I look back now and think all of the crap that we've been through, Jesus, it's been absolutely mad because I started in October, 2019.

[00:07:02] Ben Beadle: When the merger was imminent and it took forever and ever and ever. And then, then we had COVID and didn't see each other for 18 months or whatever. So it was very, very difficult, different. I mean, in some respects it might've made it slightly easier. I didn't know, but just sort of operational stuff, two websites to one, two backends into one, two call centers into one.

[00:07:23] Ben Beadle: Dealing with all of the people side as well. Yeah. I had no idea why I was letting myself in for, and I have no idea what's going to happen for the next year or so, but yeah, I think I know property very well and I enjoy property. I've always enjoyed housing and I think we've got a good story to tell on behalf of our members and that's what we're going to carry on doing.

[00:07:43] Andy Graham: Well, you've obviously got a huge amount of experience across the sector, Ben. So it's great to have this conversation with you today. And I said a good jump off point today, although you're probably sick of hearing it, is the renters reform bill. Now, I think it's going to be really difficult and I'll do my best to remain apolitical today.

[00:07:58] Andy Graham: We are of course, on the cusp of sort of a, a new government and housing is so political in this country. And, and I guess my first question is the renters reform bill. We had a chat little while before this election was called, and I distinctly remember you saying like, it really has to happen now, otherwise there's a risk that it's not going to happen.

[00:08:17] Andy Graham: You campaigned and, and a lot of people committed very, very strongly and there were a number of amendments. To be honest. My opinion was that it could have been a lot worse and actually. What it was, was probably not going to be that difficult to deal with. And it seemed like a reasonable scenario to go through.

[00:08:33] Andy Graham: And of course, that has all sort of ended up being put to the side for a minute. Was that disappointing for you guys at the NRLM? What do you think that the prospects of a new government, whoever that may be, now looks like in terms of this bill coming forward and whether or not it might be amended for better or for worse?

[00:08:51] Ben Beadle: Well, I think we were disappointed and I know there's a lot of people that were pleased that the Renters Reform Bill fell, but obviously it's going to come back. It's just a question of how it comes back and all that does, Andy, is really sort of lend uncertainty to the sector, which is not what we need.

[00:09:07] Ben Beadle: My feeling is that the bill was probably about as good as we could get it. And in fact, the day before the election was called, I was with Baroness Swinburne, who is the Minister in the Lords who said, you've actually done pretty well to get it to here. The only way is down from here. And actually we were supporting her talking to a number of peers that very afternoon to basically leave the bill alone and to get it through.

[00:09:33] Ben Beadle: Obviously then the election was called and there were I think seven bills that made it through wash up. What I know is that both Labour and Conservatives eventually supported the bill with the amendments that we had. So there was an opportunity for it to go through. There wasn't enough time for it to go through.

[00:09:50] Ben Beadle: Gove decided to take the leasehold and freehold bill through and the renter's reform bill fell. What I think we have to do now, and you will see this in our campaigning in the coming days, is assuming the polls are correct and that we have a, a Labour government. Well, Labour have made a number of commitments in the run up to the election.

[00:10:14] Ben Beadle: What our angle here is to build on the consensus. that was achieved during wash up and actually pass a bill is broadly palatable for most people and not let perfect be the enemy of the good. However, what they decide to do if and when they get into power, I think it will possibly be a short, sharp bill that just abolishes section 21, whether that's done under emergency legislation or whether it's done as part of the political process remains to be seen.

[00:10:45] Ben Beadle: But I don't think we will then, if that happens, we won't see it sort of contingent on a number of other things that we were successful at, like court reform, like a two phased implementation, things that would give people time. To adjust to the change and obviously our wider concern here is not the, this change is inevitable.

[00:11:04] Ben Beadle: It's just what form it comes in, but actually it won't do anything substantive to deal with the core issues at play here, which are lack of confidence, lack of supply, um, and, uh, demand outstripping supply and therefore resulting in very, very high rents. So we do need to push the future government to really kind of embrace the private rented sector.

[00:11:27] Ben Beadle: 45 billion pound contribution to the economy. You know, Rachel Reeves understands that. So how do you protect that? And how do you get others to kind of invest in a way that delivers on some of the things that you've said in the run up? uh, to the election. I think it's going to be a very, very interesting time, which is why I've taken a couple of days off this week, so that I'm in London from the 1st of July for the whole summer to make sure that, uh, the views of our members can be conveyed because I think that things will move quite quickly.

[00:11:59] Andy Graham: So can I take from that then that in all likelihood that the bill will probably come through and look, look very similar and we would be surprised to see any significant amendments either way, better or worse, to kind of how it was, how it was looking before it was kind of dropped, paused.

[00:12:17] Ben Beadle: Well, that's the hope Andy, and that's, that's what the campaigning is on. But you've only got to look at the amendments that were suggested to see where the opposition or the current opposition were thinking in terms of any changes. And so our argument is let's not undo the consensus that has been arrived at. Let's get the bill through and reinvigorated. Based on the consensus that was broadly achieved and let's not tinker with it too much.

[00:12:46] Ben Beadle: However, this very much depends on how labor come to power. If they come to power, if it is a very significant majority as is being forecast, then well, there won't necessarily be a lot to stop them doing more. I have to be careful what I say now, but to be doing more challenging things. And we've heard some of the rhetoric in, in recent days and weeks, haven't we?

[00:13:16] Ben Beadle: So can they keep my powder dry a little bit, but it's fair to say if they do get a very big majority, I think they can be far more bullish in how that bill is then brought forward because the Angela Rayner has been very clear about section 21. And doing it as soon as possible on day one, all of those types of things.

[00:13:34] Ben Beadle: Well, there is a process to go through and we'll need to fit in with the parliamentary timetable, but I'm sure that what you could do is strip section 21 out of that bill and just have a short sharp bill that deals with section 21. Don't worry about the ombudsman. Don't worry about the front of the portal. Don't worry about this, that, and the other just deal with section 21 job done.

[00:13:55] Andy Graham: Why do you think that property is so political in this country and you're in France the minute you spend a bit of time in France, it doesn't seem to be the case across the rest of Europe where property is used as such a political tool, but it does feel, and maybe I feel, you know, maybe that's a bit of a victim mentality as a landlord and I would like it all to be, you know, honky dory, but it does seem, and this one, this word uncertainty that you used, I would say that that has very much characterised the last at least five years, as far as I can remember, for a whole, yeah, for a whole host of reasons.

[00:14:24] Andy Graham: Is that just a very British thing? Is it the British way? And is it because there is this dividing class or maybe North and South divide? Is there something more deeply rooted that is driving a lot of this stuff, which actually is more of the fundamental problem than anything else? Because the conservatives have not been very conservative in the last government.

[00:14:43] Andy Graham: They've really not been very friendly to landlords. And that has been incredibly disappointing to see, I think. And I do wonder whether any of what we're doing now was really going to change the long term sort of outcome of how landlords and investors and the private rental section will be looked at and treated into the distant future.

[00:15:03] Ben Beadle: Well, you're right. The conservative government have taken landlords for granted and they've given them a good kicking. And it's only in the last sort of 18 months or so, they've realised that, that actually you need landlords. You need investor confidence. You're not going to be able to deliver on some of the things that you've promised to deliver on.

[00:15:20] Ben Beadle: And so we've seen a marked change from Michael Gove and others, but too little, too late. And it's a warning to the next government as well, that I think you have to think far more holistically about housing solutions. You've got to look at housing as a multifaceted component, the social housing, private housing, built to rent housing, owner occupier, there's got to be something, you're not going to be able to just build social housing for everybody.

[00:15:44] Ben Beadle: We have to do away with this silly ideology. Yeah, sure. Good thing. Let's invest in social housing. Let's build more social housing. Let's stop flogging it off for a start, or at least make sure that we replace that stock and perhaps are slightly less generous with the discount, because that is one of the things that has adversely affected where we find ourselves at the moment.

[00:16:04] Ben Beadle: where we've got over a million people on social housing waiting lists. We are very reliant on private landlords kind of taking people on benefits. We've got local authorities that are, you know, out bidding each other to attract private landlords, but that's a bit mad. That is a little bit mad. I don't think anybody could think that that is a really good thing.

[00:16:28] Ben Beadle: So we do have a massive shortage of housing. And as a result, I think that this perceived inequality isn't there, you know, if I was 18 or 19 now looking at buying a house or even renting, I don't know whether I would be able to afford it. I do share that the anger and it is anger that young people are really, really feeling it.

[00:16:51] Ben Beadle: They're saddled with that. If they've been to university, um, I don't know that it's always been this difficult to be honest with you, but the solution isn't to kick the people who are perceived to be better off because we know that actually, you know, it's very marginal to be renting your property.

[00:17:09] Ben Beadle: Savills record profits at sub 4%. They're lowest since 2008, I think it was, or 2007. And so we mustn't think that just because you happen to have a, a property or two, that somehow, you know, well, well, that's, you know, you're hoarding properties, you're preventing people from being able to, to buy. That's, that's not right.

[00:17:33] Ben Beadle: And also I think that what recent episodes and reports have sort of shown is that, you know, social housing isn't quite the panacea that everybody feels that it is. And this idea of a, a very, very big landlord. You know what, it's bloody difficult to manage 20,000 homes and you know what stuff goes wrong.

[00:17:53] Ben Beadle: And so there I say it bigger isn't always better. You can spread your risk by actually yes, encouraging people in institutions to build. But of course, let's remember government doesn't actually build anything. It just create the environment for homes to be built. We've missed those targets year on year.

[00:18:12] Ben Beadle: So these targets that have been promised 1.5 million over the course of the next Parliament by Labour, 1.6, just to be contrary from the Tories over the next Parliament, 300 ish thousand homes a year. Well, that's never been met. And actually with the cost of living crisis and the cost of materials and that sort of stuff, it's very, very expensive.

[00:18:33] Ben Beadle: And whether you are a private landlord or a social landlord, you know what, you kind of need it to wash its face, otherwise you're not going to bother. So profit isn't a dirty word, it’s a realistic word. Otherwise, why, why bother? So I think we do need to move away from, whilst I understand the anger, actually pitting one side against the other is not helpful. The Tories have failed miserably at this. Creating a class war is not the solution here.

[00:18:59] Andy Graham: No, and I think you only need to look towards Scotland and across to Ireland to see actually what can happen if, you know, you continue to meddle and there's been talk of things like rent controls, and we can see where that that's been done, actually.

[00:19:12] Andy Graham: It hasn't really done what anyone hopes to do. It's ultimately just driven prices up. And, and I think a lot of what you've talked about, and I share this, the interventions that the governments have made, tax changes and additional legislation, and for me, the renters reform bill was just another piece. It was framed as this idea of making the private rental sector fairer for everybody.

[00:19:33] Andy Graham: But I really failed to see what it was actually doing for me as a landlord who feels like he already provides. Good quality accommodation. I appreciate that some tenants maybe don't get a fair deal, but equally some landlords, I think, feel like they don't get a fair deal. And for me, all of that additional red tape, that legislation, um, and the attention that's being detracted from these problems, some of which you just mentioned, has ultimately meant that the cost of running businesses, which they have to be run like businesses to, to, to provide a good customer service and be reactive.

[00:20:08] Andy Graham: To tenants has become increasingly difficult. And it to me seems quite obvious that actually, I'm not sure that incentivising landlords is necessarily the word, but actually supporting landlords, supporting landlords to produce and run good profitable businesses and actually maintain a good and healthy supply could actually bring property values and certainly rental prices down a little bit.

[00:20:31] Andy Graham: And while it's only going to touch the edges, I'm sure there's, there's bigger problems we need to talk about. But for me, that seems to be a potential solution. And I do, I do wonder who's keeping an eye on that. And then I also wonder, this is perhaps a question for you, Ben, what do you think as a landlord on the ground and particularly as a HMO investor, a lot of our listeners obviously invest in HMOs, what can we be doing here to sort of maybe manage this as best as we possibly can, if we're looking ahead and we can see that it's not likely to change or these views are not likely to change in the short term.

[00:21:04] Andy Graham: But equally, um, you know, there's still going to be a huge demand for housing. Our HMO is a good solution because it doesn't seem to get spoken about much. And then in fact, maybe something to come back to. It does seem like there were a couple of things in the renters reform bill that were actually quite intentional to try and squeeze HMO, some HMO investors, particularly in the, sort of the big city locations where there's a lot of students, but what would your opinion be on HMOs and what their role could be within this wider problem that we've got?

[00:21:32] Ben Beadle: Yeah, so, I mean, first of all is the word, isn't it? When you think of HMOs, it doesn't necessarily lend itself to thinking about nice things. And it's the same with Landlord, and we discussed this at the HMO Awards, I think. We did. I think we probably need a bit of a rebrand, and that's certainly something that the NRLA is going to be releasing in the autumn, say it here, but to kind of broaden its appeal.

[00:22:00] Ben Beadle: to a more varied property professional, but also make it very clear that we are championing the private rented sector. The private rented sector is a good thing. Yes, of course, you know, there's elements to it that can be improved, but actually you've got people within the private rented sector who are very passionate about it, who are very keen for it to succeed and who want to go over and above what's expected of them.

[00:22:25] Ben Beadle: And we want to be able to support that endeavor. So that's why we're going to be rebranding in the autumn, September, I think is when we'd be releasing it. So I think for me, it's also about recognising, yes, okay, there's some elements of our industry that could do better and actually dealing with those issues head on.

[00:22:46] Ben Beadle: You won't hear me. defend every landlord. You'll hear me hang some landlords out to dry who bring the sector into disrepute. You know, we can't defend the indefensible, but we can champion and talk up those that are doing the right thing. And that's very much incumbent on us as an organisation, on me as a key sort of spokesperson, but it's also incumbent on individuals.

[00:23:11] Ben Beadle: As I said, at the HMO awards, don't be afraid to approach your elected representatives about your concerns. Tell us about your concerns as well, but actually Renter groups are very good at sort of mobilizing and creating a urgency about the situation. We're all on the same page. We all recognise there's a housing emergency.

[00:23:32] Ben Beadle: It's no good to me having 15 people apply to rent one of my properties, because then I will get accused of discriminating against somebody who's on benefits or, or whatever it happens to be, you know what, I just want to choose the least risky tenant who presents their credentials, in a way that is going to sustain a tendency, not interested in anything else.

[00:23:52] Ben Beadle: I'm not encouraging bidding wars and, you know, Starmer is never going to be able to deal with bidding wars unless he deals with the fundamental issues of supply. So we have to think very, very holistically. I think we've also got to make sure that as individuals, we talk up what we're doing. And if there's one thing that people take away from today's podcast is when we have a government confirmed when we have elected representatives, write to them, tell them what you're doing, tell them what your concerns are. Yes, you can use the toolkit on the NRLA site, but stick it in your own words, copy us in, let's get some movement.

[00:24:31] Andy Graham: From our community, um, which is probably over about 10,000 members. I think that collective voice and that support and being able to answer the questions and share ideas and advice and guidance with one another is, is helping a lot of people. I do have a direct question for you though, Ben, and I've taken myself back to sort of not been in the game quite as long as you, but the best part of 20 years and I, you know, very green, very few sort of concerns in the world and It was part of that naivety that probably allowed me to sort of build quite a successful business in the end.

[00:25:03] Andy Graham: And I think now that I would in the current climate, it would be so different. It would be much more challenging. I'm not sure whether I'd really have the, the kind of the balls to do it. If I'm quite, quite honest. Do you think to be a landlord now, you, you almost have to be a professional landlord because there were historically in the sellout, but a lot of accidental landlords, people who just kind of fallen into it, or it was quite easy or easier to do perhaps through the nineties as Blair was in. Do you think times have changed? Are we beyond that now? Do we have to think radically different as a landlord, as an investor, if you want to succeed?

[00:25:34] Ben Beadle: Well, I think as an investor, there are certainly more pitfalls now than they once were. And there's such a focus on, on housing. Now that I don't think you can afford to be an amateur.

[00:25:47] Ben Beadle: I don't know whether an amateur landlord actually exists. I think you're either consider yourself as a business or you're a bit ignorant to the mood music around you, really. I don't think that you can afford to be in that sort of amateur category. And so that's why sort of professional support is so important.

[00:26:06] Ben Beadle: You need to have access to an advice, like when things go wrong, you need to make sure that your documents are up to date. You need to manage your compliance or boring stuff, right? But actually really, really important, basic stuff that will undermine your investment. If you get it wrong. I mean, it really is as simple as that.

[00:26:23] Ben Beadle: So I think the environment is very different to how it was certainly when I was investing, but you know what? The rewards are still there. I think you just have to be far more diligent about how you go about it. And you will have to just embrace the fact that there is more regulation than everybody would like, and that more regulation will be coming.

[00:26:45] Ben Beadle: I mean, you know, I can't make it go away. All I can do, we can do is to effectively make it as palatable as possible for investors to continue and to make the argument that if you do make something too difficult, too punitive, Not rewarding enough. Well, you're not going to get the homes that you need in the first place.

[00:27:05] Ben Beadle: So, we mustn't throw the baby out with the bath water on some of this stuff. Yes, it's still a great thing to invest in. Is it as good as it was 10, 15 years ago? No, but what is?

[00:27:17] Andy Graham: It’s good sermon. And I found myself saying more and more as well. That's I think managing our own expectations as landlords and as investors has become increasingly important, you've got to work harder for the same returns.

[00:27:28] Andy Graham: You've got to work more for the same returns. There is more admin, there's more paperwork. If you don't want to be a busy fool, then you need the appropriate systems and processes and people to help you do all of that, unfortunately. It's not an industry now, and I think there are just too many moving parts to be able to sit back and put your feet up entirely, which I think is still kind of the hopeful and wishful thinking behind building a property business.

[00:27:51] Andy Graham: And as rewarding as great as it can be, personally, I don't think that that actually really why somebody should get into this business. I think if you want to. Build a business that maybe one day is hands off and can let you put your feet up. There's different types of businesses to build. Property is probably not the one to do that.

[00:28:08] Ben Beadle: But remember what we have now is we've got far greater technology to be able to manage our portfolios in a way that, dare I say, we perhaps didn't have 15 or 20 years or so ago. So I think things. are better in some regards. Yeah, you can manage compliance more effectively, but you're right. You've got to have the right sort of systems.You've got to know what to tap into. And that sort of support network is worth its weight in gold.

[00:28:34] Andy Graham: Ben this has been a really interesting conversation. The next five years, irrespective of who comes in, what government we're under, what do you think it'll look like for the PRS and if you are hopeful and some of your sort of objectives and missions were achievable, what would you hope to see happen over the next five years for the industry as a whole?

[00:28:58] Ben Beadle: So I'd hope that we do see the investment in social housing that we need, but that it isn't to the detriment of the private rented sector, because in reality, we need, we need both, right? So if we're saying if a future government is saying that the way they're going to deal with a shortage of housing supply is to invest in social housing, but that's fine, but let's not do silly things like convert PRS property into social housing.

[00:29:25] Ben Beadle: Because that's not adding to the overall net supply of homes. We need to see actual increases. So that would be the first thing. The second thing is, I think we will inevitably see more regulation and a more stricter framework of operating, but we will see an abolition to section 21. We will see things be made more.

[00:29:47] Ben Beadle: difficult, I think, and our job is to make sure that whatever Section 21 abolition looks like, that we've always been focused on the alternative being effective and working, and that's what we will absolutely focus on. Because we mustn't forget, our country does not really support rent dodgers and people that are anti-social.

[00:30:07] Ben Beadle: And so there's a great opportunity there to be on the right side of the argument. You know, I don't want my kids being woken up at three o'clock in the morning because next door is a knocking shop and I can't do anything about it. But actually that's not what the majority feel. So yes, we're in a very, very different world.

[00:30:23] Ben Beadle: I think we're in a very different world. But some of the fundamentals will remain, and I think we've got to push that argument, particularly in the context of section 21, particularly in the context of antisocial behavior. I mean, as a HMO landlord, predominantly, I haven't had rent arrears for ages. I've had loads of rent arrears this year, and I've had people mucking about, and I self-manage as well.

[00:30:44] Ben Beadle: So, you know, they've all got something over me. Oh, if I do something wrong or, uh, get a bit uppity, then I'm going to go to the paperwork. But luckily I haven't had that. Quite that, but it is more difficult and even in the student world, which has been for me relatively easy, it is becoming more difficult.

[00:31:05] Ben Beadle: And I think that what we can't do is acquiesce to all of the extreme calls that we're hearing. We've got to keep to the center ground and that's what we're working hard to do.

[00:31:16] Andy Graham: I've got one final question for you, Ben, and this might be the million dollar question, but social housing part of perhaps the solution.

[00:31:22] Andy Graham: We've talked about other ideas today, but you've also shared this target 1.5 million homes that we need. They want to deliver. We've heard it before, haven't we? And what do you think needs to happen to get anywhere? Near hitting these targets, because on a fundamental level, I think that really the only way to make the biggest change is actually to deal with that.

[00:31:44] Andy Graham: Do you think that's all or the majority is through social housing or actually do we need to. Take a different approach with developers. And I asked this question as a developer, who takes extraordinarily large risks, which of course need to be appropriately rewarded, but it is exceptionally difficult sometimes to just get the projects to a point where that you can even begin. So your thoughts on that, I think would be interesting to hear.

[00:32:07] Ben Beadle: So my thoughts are, and I'm not a developer, Andy, but I think, you know, I've had enough experience with local authorities, particularly recently to know that it's be kind. You don't have to be that kind, but I do. Not for us. I think there should be a bit more pragmatism when it comes to sort of local authority interpretation and planning.

[00:32:29] Ben Beadle: And rather than kind of err on the side of caution, actually, I'd go a little bit more the other way. So I think there are significant issues with planning and, and delays and, and that sort of thing. And it does stem to local authority. resourcing and cut. So that will be the first thing that I say. And the second thing is, you know, we're very precious about the greenbelt and it's quite interesting to see that, you know, Skama talk about potentially building on the greenbelt, but I think there needs to be far more kind of incentives to be able to bring commercial buildings back into use, for example.

[00:33:02] Ben Beadle: And I also think that if government are to deliver on their targets, they are going to have to make some changes because if they don't, yeah, these targets have failed to be met for years, year after year after year. So something has to be done differently. One of the other things is sort of opportunity though, so, you know, we, if we're talking about social housing, you know, I'd love to sort of see private landlords come together.

[00:33:30] Ben Beadle: Like as a reader or something who might be able to collectively invest in social housing that would show private landlords in a different light. And that's certainly one of the things that I'm, I'm looking at at the moment, how we might be able to diversify our investments through our kind of People power, that might be something we could consider, but for sure, something has to be fundamentally different.

[00:33:53] Ben Beadle: And, you know, often you see this, oh, we're going to free up planning and nothing actually happens. People are going to have to get used to buildings in their villages and towns, and it's difficult to accept.

[00:34:08] Andy Graham: It is, and I guess you and I and everybody else will just have to wait and see because the real question is, I think we all agree with you, Ben, there is, will they do anything about it?

[00:34:17] Andy Graham: Will they actually take affirmative action, make some changes to the planning system? But let's wait and see. I haven't heard anything about it. That's really kind of piqued my attention. That's the bit that concerns me.

[00:34:28] Ben Beadle: And that's the thing with all of this. Yes, we know the headlines. Yes, we know the issues, but what are the actual policies, policy positions, what are the small tweaks that you're going to make that collectively will make a big difference?

[00:34:40] Ben Beadle: And of course, we won't find that out until they work them out and are in power, I guess. So there's a great opportunity though, to influence, which is why I say, getting involved with your elected representative once confirmed is really, really important because we are part of the solution here. We may not be viewed as it just yet, but we are part of the solution and we can really help government deliver on its aspirations and really help the private rented sector give the homes it needs to people because we're in desperate need of it, shortage at the moment,

[00:35:12] Andy Graham: Ben, this has been a really interesting conversation, especially from somebody who has the unique sub vantage point that you have across the PRS and the conversations and the rooms that you are able to get into. So we really appreciate your time for anyone listening today, who perhaps wants to hear more from you, maybe see more from you, a conferences, events or anything that they can be keeping an eye out for.

[00:35:35] Ben Beadle: Yeah, so I'm speaking at the Landlord Investor Show on the 3rd of July at Billingsgate. That's just before the election. You can follow me on social media, although I'm quiet at the moment at the request of my press team, but we have a full program of conferences from September that will be going live shortly.

[00:35:55] Ben Beadle: They're free to members and non-members. It'd be great to see landlords and agents there. We're across Wales. I know we're going to Southampton in September as well. So check out the NRLA site and I hope to see you at an event soon. Fantastic.

[00:36:08] Andy Graham: Fantastic. Ben, thank you again so much. It's been a real pleasure. And I guess let's cross our fingers and hope that the next few years look a bit better. Thanks, Ben.

[00:36:23] Andy Graham: That is it for today's episode, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with myself and Ben. I know I certainly did. It sounds like we should probably prepare ourselves for another bumpy few years in the industry. More uncertainty, but hey ho, we're used to it by now, aren't we?

[00:36:38] Andy Graham: Don't forget that if you want to level things up, if you're building your own HMO property business, and you want to find out how to do this, well, everything you need is inside the HMO Roadmap. Just head to thehmoroadmap.co.uk, and you'll find over 400 resources in there, from community case studies, to video lessons, to downloadable templates, and a whole lot more.

[00:36:56] Andy Graham: Ben actually judged the best content provider of the year at the HMO Awards, and it was Ben who awarded us with the winning award. So Ben himself knows how good the HMO Roadmap is. Head on over there now, check it out, and I promise you won't be disappointed. That is it for me, guys. Thank you again for tuning in. Don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week, so please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.