New Changes To Permitted Development Rights That Could Be HUGE for HMO Investors With Andrew & Mary

In today's episode, I'm joined by Andrew and Mary, our expert architects and official partners of The HMO community and The HMO Roadmap.

We'll be discussing the government's proposed changes to some of the permitted development rights that we, as HMO investors, can take advantage of.

These proposals represent some of the most exciting changes in the property market right now. For all HMO investors, there's a significant opportunity to do more and do it better.

If you want to learn about these proposed changes and how we might benefit as HMO investors, make sure you stick around.

Interested in discussing your HMO design and architecture needs? Contact Andrew and Mary here.

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:00)
Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short -term investment plan soon became a long -term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40)
In today's episode, I'm joined by Andrew and Mary, who are of course our expert architects. When it comes to architecture and all things design, it's Andrew and Mary that we rely on. They're our official partners of the HMO community and the HMO roadmap. Today, we're going to be discussing the proposals that the government have made to change some of the permitted development rights that you and I, as HMO investors, could take advantage of. These are some of the most exciting changes I think are fought in the property market at the minute. And for all those HMO investors, there's so much scope to do more and to do it better. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. If you want to find out what those proposed changes are and how we might be able to benefit as HMO investors, make sure you stick around. Please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO podcast.

Andy Graham (01:28)
Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one -stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:40)
Hey guys, great to have you back on the show.

Andrew & Mary (02:43)

Great to be here. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, thanks for having us.

Andy Graham (02:45)
 

Feels like it's been a while. It has been a while. I think this is a long overdue catch up and I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. Perhaps fairly selfishly, I need an update on all this stuff that we're going to talk about today as well. And I know you guys have got some good information to share with us, but I also know that you guys have been really, really busy with some great stuff going on, really cool projects. Do you want to give us a little bit of an update before you do, before you dive into today's episode? Tell us a little bit about what's happening over at Elite headquarters. Cause you've got some cool stuff happening.

Andrew & Mary (03:14)

Yeah, absolutely. No problem. So as you know, that we obviously are architects and also property investors ourselves, and we have a portfolio of HMOs. So we are working on three of our own HMO projects at the moment, three six bedroom HMOs that we are working on. One is currently on site, the other two are in conveyancing.

And they're all in an article four area. So we know all about the article four challenges. And yeah, we're just going through it. There's some, the projects kind of include a basement conversion that we will be documenting. So that'll be really exciting. It's first time for us doing our own basement conversion, which will be really good. And then, yeah, that's in terms of our HMO and what else have we got going on, Andrew?

Andy Graham (04:02)
There's a big project, I think, that you guys are working on at the minute as well.

Andrew & Mary (04:06)

Yeah. So. As you know, Andy, we've been trying to move into some bigger developments and we've got a pub under an option agreement that's currently in planning. So that's really exciting. That'll be five cottages and then a new built house in the car park. But last week, we completed the purchase on a mill building, which has been going through since the end of last year. So that's got planning permission to be knocked down and 17 new build apartments. Wow. We're really excited about that. Yeah, like you said, big project, but actually with kind of our commercial background as architects.

It's actually maybe a bit more in our kind of comfort zone, to be honest. It's what we were used to doing back in the day when we were working as architects. We've worked on up to 400 apartment kind of tower blocks. So 17 apartments actually seems relatively comfortable to us, I would say. So yeah, that's kind of our own personal stuff going on. And then obviously, of course, we've got the design business, as you know, as with partners with HMO Roadmap. And that's just, again, it's flying. We had a great year last year and it's continued into this year.

Andrew & Mary (05:05)
We've got new staff working for us. We've kind of got about 40 projects already going on this year. That's a mixture of HMOs and flats, apartments, and things like that. But probably already working on about 130 HMO rooms this year. All get added to the market, which is great. We really want to help change the face of HMOs around the country. I really feel like we're doing that.

Andy Graham (05:29)
Fantastic. And you've helped. A lot of our community members actually, and a number of my mentees as well with some cracking projects, some really, really good stuff. This is quite an extensive CV you guys have built in the world. And there was any doubt you guys were experts. There it is. And you're up for a few awards as well at the HMO Awards.

Andrew & Mary (05:46)
We are, yes. So I think we're up for, we've been shortlisted for three awards. Well done. One is supplier of the year. So our architecture and design company, we're really chuffed about that. Another one is Design for a hate press co-living design, which is for our 10 bed HMO project X that I'm sure people will be able to see on our social media channels from last year. And then a bit of a controversial, the last one, cause it's best content provider. And we may be head to head with the HMO roadmap.

Andy Graham (06:17)
Oh yeah. I'm just going to end this interview.

Andrew & Mary (06:22)
That was for our little ebook that we made about how to turn a house into a HMO. So very different kind of like subject matter. Fantastic. Taking away from the HMO roadmap.

Andy Graham (06:33)
So pleased for you guys because we've worked so closely together, known each other for so long now. And again, it's so easy on social media. It looks easy. And I know just like every other investor, how much work you've put into it and how much commitment and how persistent you've had to be to get onto this sort of trajectory. And it's so, so great to see. And I just know you're great people and doing really great things for everyone that you work with as well. So yeah, really, really good to see, I think like your CV and your experience is so, so significant now. I mean, it's just such a no brainer for anyone. I think who needs a bit of help and support with like HMO and design and the architectural stuff to speak to you guys, because it's just so bread and butter for you, which I think before now that wasn't the case. And we get asked so many times in the community, can you recommend someone or can you listen? And it's just so easy to say, yeah, you just need to speak to Andrew and Mary. They'll be able to sort it out. And obviously you guys have to keep well abreast of all of the changes and regulations and legislation in the industry, which is actually what we're going to talk about today. Isn't it? I'm quite excited about this because it seems like, I don't know whether you probably know better than me, but I don't know whether this is because this is the conservatives just like clutching at straws, trying to sort of keep some sort of a foot here, keep some sort of a hold on power, whether or not it'll work. But there have been some proposals to planning changes and one of those that we're particularly interested in, I think could be really, really great. For HMO investors, particularly our things around some of the permitted development rights. So I think today we're going to discuss three or four of those key proposals, aren't we? And you guys hopefully going to be able to tell us a little bit more about what they are. So, I mean, where do you want to start guys? Can you just tell us a little bit about what's being proposed? What's happening at the minute and where is there's a sort of a consultation that's happened? Where are things at? Cause I think it's important to say, first of all, what we're about to discuss. Nnone of it is actually sort of written in ink yet. It's going through that process. Is that right?

Andrew & Mary (08:27)
Yeah, that's right. And so yeah, what we're going to talk about is I think is massive for HMO investors and the potential opportunities it could offer to convert houses into HMO. So all residential properties come with certain permitted development rights. So most people have heard of them, things like dormers, rear extensions, side extensions, and things like that. And that applies as a member on a previous podcast with Martin, he confirmed that that applies to your C3 residential and your C4 HMO. So you can apply these development rights even if you're planning to convert it. And so those rules allow you to add this kind of additional area to your properties, which is really important when you're trying to create HMOs and add additional bedrooms. So if you can convert that loft, potentially get two more bedrooms up there, that could be the difference between having a four bed or a six bed HMO. So they're really important rules to know. And yeah, as you've alluded to Andy, different proposals have been made to change some of these rules and expand them even further. And so that's what the government have been discussing. There was a consultation period, which ended on, I think the 9th of April, so about a month ago. And we're now just waiting for the kind of final sealed approval of which ones are going to be changed, what changes exactly they're going to bring through and when they're going to come through as well, so where they can start being applied onto properties into the future.

Andy Graham (09:50)
I've said so many times and in response to the question that we get asked so regularly, which is how do you try and determine what your property is going to be worth at the end after a refurbishment and what's the best way to recycle capital? And I've always said, yes, commercial valuations are a really important part of what we as HMO investors can try and leverage and take advantage of to get a little bit more capital back out of our deals. But the really fundamental piece is adding space. Yes, converting existing. Yes, of improving spec and the electrics and the plumbing and these are absolutely bought fundamentally adding space. And you know, it's a really simple maths exercise, isn't it? If you can add 300 square feet and you know that it costs you X to do that for, and once you've got it, that space on a pound per square foot basis worth Y fundamentally, you know, you're adding value. And it's a really good, very predictable method of actually enhancing and uplifting value.

And for us guys, it's creating equity, it's creating capital, as well as obviously creating really important space that we actually need to make as many rooms as possible or make the function of flow of our HMOs as good as possible. I still honestly think that this part of what we do is overlooked a little bit too much. I think too much attention is actually given to the commercial side of the valuation and those sort of ASTs and the rents that we can actually achieve. Yes, really important, but fundamentally finding assets with the potential to do these sorts of PD changes to for me is still the absolute bread and butter I was just saying before we hit record I've just offered on something haven't been told yet whether or not I've got it. But want to do a number of changes under planning and PD immediately just to enhance that value and I know that they'll probably cost us X and I know that the Pound per square foot after will be Y and it's a really simple maths exercise So very pleased to be talking about this today and hopefully shed a little bit more light on this so where do you want to start with? I think the first one that I've seen and the one that I'm really interested in is around dormers. I think there's some proposals to what we might be able to do differently with dormers. Is that right?

Andrew & Mary (11:50)

Yeah, absolutely. So what we'll do is we'll just go through all the four different main permitted developments and then what the changes are proposed in accordance to that as well. And yeah, essentially the first one is the dormers. So currently, what happens in a dormer extension? So you can have a rear dormer extension on a terrace house. You can have it up to 40 cubic meters. And then on a semi -detached or detached house, you can have it up to 50 cubic meters and only at the rear of the building. You need planning permission at the front of the building.

Andy Graham (12:28)

And is there, are there some caveats to that? For example? If you're in a conservation area or if the property is listed, those caveats still remain and may potentially remove the fact that that would otherwise be PD. That's still the case, right?

Andrew & Mary (12:43)

Absolutely. Yes. Still the case. So depending on the area you're in, like you're saying, if it's an area of natural beauty, if it's grade listed building or anything like that, there's still caveats and you still may not be able to have the rear extension. But in the majority of areas in the UK.
 

Andy Graham (13:03)

Yeah, as I'm racking my brains trying to think whether I've got any HMOs in areas of outstanding natural beauty. I think that's definitely not. That said, I've done a lot of stuff in conservation areas and things like that. So, okay, good to know. So that's the current sort of permitted development allowance. What then are the proposals? What might we, in the near future, be able to do?
 

Andrew & Mary (13:25)

So there's discussions around potentially those volumes being made bigger. So they might not either to the extent of even potentially not having any limits onto the volumes of the dormers. There's also talk about being able to raise the height of the roof by up to 300 mil in order to make those lofts that have got low head height work rather than obviously in the past where you typically maybe like lower the floor internally. How exactly that's going to work, I think would be interesting to see. Is that going to be that you're allowed to raise the ridge and therefore you change the angle of the slope of the roof? Or is it going to be that you would increase the eaves of the height and the angle of the roof stays the same? I think that's less of an issue on maybe detached properties, but it's going to be interesting on a semi -detached or a terraced property when your neighbors haven't obviously increased their roof heights. So that'd be interesting to see how that would work in reality.

The other big one as well, at the moment you can only put dormers onto houses, but there's talk about if you have a block of flats and say there's a pitched roof on top of the block of flats and the flat that's up in that top floor, they would also have the right to put a dormer onto their dwelling, which would be a big change as well, because that would open up a lot more opportunities.

Andy Graham (14:43)

Wow. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think dormers have been a really key part of my strategy over the years. I've done a number of dormers and fundamentally. Without a dormer and a dormer at the rear, it wouldn't have been possible to get two rooms in the attic space. And on many occasions, for example, in Sheffield, we've been able to put a good sized dormer on the rear and therefore get two bedrooms into an attic space. So that space thing has been really important as well, because without being able to do too much at the rear of that attic space, trying to get enough floor space for two bedrooms, plus the staircase and any sort of fire separation has always been a bit of a challenge. So potentially being able to make that dormer a little bit bigger could make it much, much easier.

And I can think of a number of scenarios straight away. So that's really positive to hear. And I certainly hope that becomes the case. Obviously. Yes. I think in many cases, it would be much easier just to lift the ridge or like you said, just the pitch of the roof and create some head height there rather than drop everything. I've done it before you've done it so many times and it is a bit of a hassle, isn't it? And then inevitably we end up with rooms downstairs that just feel a little bit boxier that still kind of work, but it's not preferential. So.they would be great changes, wouldn't they?

Andrew & Mary (15:52)

Absolutely. And I think just off the back of what you're saying in terms of kind of laying out HMO rooms on the top floor, that dormer extension really allows you to get a flat surface. And when you're thinking of space planning, you can easily then that means you put an en suite in that area, you can fit your shower in that area. Whereas when you have sloping ceilings, as things as simple as showers, wardrobes, anything of a significant height don't really fit in those spaces. So allowing those and opening that up and really, really helps out.

Andy Graham (16:27)

Yeah, well, even people of a significant height tend not to fit very well in there. Unfortunately, not a problem that I've often struggled with. Fortunately, not a problem I have, but definitely a problem I have. I remember we had a house in Sheffield and just like this, we had two rooms in the attic, one smaller room at the front, a bigger one with the dormer at the back, but the room at the front, God, I remember one time doing some viewings and we showed five lads around and they all must have been about six foot one or six foot two basketball players.

And I remember watching the walk up and thinking, there's not a chance in hell you guys are going to want to take this house because none of you are going to be able to fit in this attic room. But this sounds really, really, really positive. And one of the great things about dormers, I think, is that actually they're usually very cost effective. Once you've done one, you realize they're actually pretty easy to do from a structural point of view. It really easy to sort of separate from any other major works that you might otherwise need to do. You don't need to do any of the groundwork or anything like that.

So maybe a bit of structural stuff, but this would be really positive. So fingers crossed this one comes through guys. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I think the next one we were going to discuss was rear extensions. Rear extensions have obviously been permitted for a while. So bring us up to speed. What are we currently able to do?

Andrew & Mary (17:38)

Yeah. So a single story of re -extensions can be added to the rear of a residential property under permitted development. So that's allowed to do. And again, the caveats are what you were saying earlier, Andy, is that if you're in areas of particular restrictions, conservations, et cetera, as well, and that can be done in terraced houses, semi -detached houses and detached houses. On terraced houses and semi -detached houses, the rear extension, the single storey extension can be up to three meters deep. So it can come out from the building by three meters. It needs to cover less than 50 % of that garden space or that land space at the back of the house. And then for the detached one, you can go as far as four meters deep with a single storey extension. And again, it can't cover more than 50% of the land behind the house.

Andy Graham (18:35)

This has been one of the challenges, hasn't it? Like definitely this restriction of, of like not taking up more than a certain amount of the garden space has been a real challenge. And often, especially where we buy, I would say. A lot of the plots tend not to be that big, like the type of housing that we've typically built in the UK, certainly post 1930s, we lived pretty close together and gone back to back and we've come across this challenge a number of times. And I think on most occasions probably ended up getting what we want, maybe go back via sort of a full planning route, but obviously that's much more difficult to predict. It takes a lot longer, it costs a lot more. And there've definitely been occasions where council just said no. So what are the current proposals, what might we be able to do if this goes well?

Andrew and Mary (19:21)

Yes, with the terraced and the semi -detached houses, as Mary mentioned, you can only go out by three metres. They're talking about increasing that to four metres. To an extra metre just straight away, that would not be great. And then that kind of area of land restriction, they're talking about that being removed completely. So in theory, you could just go out that four metres regardless of how much of that rear garden that you are covering.

And then same with detached houses. So originally it was four meters and they're talking about it being allowed to go out to five meters instead. And again, that 50% area restriction will be removed.

Andy Graham (19:58)

Wow. So just on the distance thing, first of all, an extra meter for each of these doesn't sound like much, but actually, if you've ever done an extension, a meter across a span of let's say, well, a semi might be, I don't know, six or eight meters. I think mine's nine or 10. It's actually a huge amount of space, isn't it? It really does make a big, big difference.

Mary and Andrew (20:19)

Yeah. And even, for example, a lot of the time clients are converting semi -detached or terraced houses and you're kind of, you're looking at six meters, five meters of kind of that, the rear width of the building, but being able to go out to four meters or five meters that really allows you to have more generous bedrooms or more generous communal areas. So allows you to have much better spaces and space planning behind building.

Andy Graham (20:49)
And then potentially removing the restriction on how much of the garden you're actually able to occupy with the new sort of extension. That would be really great. Cause then all of a sudden it means that pretty much as long as there is a bit of garden space, there's almost no restriction that you can kind of try and max out max that out wherever possible, which previously not really much use spending a lot of money doing a two meter extension. There's obviously scales of economies, but if you can actually go out four or five meters every time, that makes so much more sense. So again, really, really positive ones. And I can see a huge value in this for HMO investors, particularly on terrace houses and semis, which let's be honest, is generally speaking what most of us are buying at, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. That's great news.

What next? I think we've got some potential changes to maybe double story rear extensions as well. But actually this is one of the things that I'm not actually super clued up on. I'm not really sure at all what we can even do right now. So again, tell us what we can do now guys with double story rear extensions.

Andrew and Mary (21:53)

Yeah, no problem. So just to give you a little bit of a background in terms of what UK planners look at. So essentially, in the UK, planners and the councils want to walk down a street and not see any visible extensions, especially double storey extensions, etc. They want the frontage of houses in the UK to kind of remain the same. So that's why in terms of extensions and double storey extensions, the permitted development is that you can have a double storey rear extension to a residential property under the permitted development rules. So it does mean that when you're viewing at the front of the building, that double story extension shouldn't be visible. That's why all the extensions and things like that have predominantly been at the rear side of the back of the house. And very similar to single story extensions, currently it stands that you can extend to three meters deep at the back of the house as two -storey extension and you can't take more than 50 % of the rear land at the back. And it needs to be again, a maximum of seven meters from the rear boundary. So that's quite an important bit, isn't it? 

That's kind of critical bit really in terms of what the potential changes are. It's all around that seven meter mark. So the proposal at the moment is to increase it from three meters to four meters so you can make a larger extension. Similar to what we talked about with the single storey extensions, that 50 % area restriction is going to be removed. And then this one is the big one where if your property backs onto a non -residential property, so if it backs onto say an industrial site or agricultural site or whatever it might be, then the seven meter from the rear boundary will be removed entirely. And you can go all the way to zero meters. You can basically build an extension all the way up to your, the rear fence of your land, as long as it's not another residential property at the other side of that fence.

Andy Graham (24:05)

Wow. Okay. So just so I understand them. So at the minute, similar to single storey extensions, we can go out on a detached, we can go out five meters all the way up so long as we can't see it from the front. And am I right in thinking that the roof, has to be lower than the existing roof line as well.

Andrew and Mary (24:23)

Yes, it's three meters for the double storey. Three meters. Three meters on any type of property. And you're right, it's about, I suppose we should say that of everything we've discussed so far, there is more nuances to these. So things like you've alluded to there Andy, in terms of the maximum height of the extension. I mean, it must be below the existing eaves height, below the existing roof ridge height, et cetera, et cetera things with the dormers, there's minimum setbacks they need to be from the wall of the property. So there is a lot of nuances how the rear boundary of a property is defined, things like that. There's lots of nuances, but yeah, on the grand scheme of things like the big high level points, yeah, you could essentially at the moment go out by three meters and not cover 50 % of the total land. And you have to be set back from the back boundary by seven meters on a double storey extension.

Andy Graham (25:16)
Right. And so the proposal is that if this restriction of having to be seven meters from the boundary may be removed. Can I just clarify guys? Is that proposal only in the case that there is non -residential on the back of it? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So if you fortunate enough to back onto something that is not, I've actually got a site just like this. So this is really interesting for me. Backs onto a hotel actually, which actually I'm not sure whether a hotel would be residential or not typically residential, but it is overnight accommodation.

Andrew and Mary(25:47)

Well, the hotel is following the C use class, which is residential, but I suppose that's maybe something that needs to be clarified in the paperwork that comes out really. It's what, in my opinion, when I hear that I'm thinking another residential dwelling or a nature house. Whereas I'm with you, whilst a hotel is a C use class, it's more commercial property, isn't it?

Andy Graham (26:10)

Okay. Interesting. I've got to admit.Double storey extensions, I think I've done maybe one before, but I haven't done too many of these and I have in all honesty just found them too restrictive. And when I've looked at what I can actually achieve from it, it doesn't seem to have been able to produce enough for me of great value.

Andrew and Mary (26:30)

Yeah, that's right. Usually when converting and making a double story extension, it seems like the cost of spending the amount to create the double storey extension kind of isn't feasible enough or doesn't get you the right ROI's for the extra maybe bedroom and communal space that's able to make. And so if we're able to change that, so you can make, for example, two bedrooms in the rear and then a communal space in the ground floor, that might be a lot more cost effective, but that might actually make the ROI work better.

Andy Graham (27:04)

Absolutely. Okay. And I think there's one more, and this is the one that I think is really interesting. This is the one that has driven me mad. I've never understood why nobody just applied a bit of common sense to this one. And it's wraparound extensions. So again, tell us about what we can and can't do now guys.

Andrew and Mary (27:24)

Yeah, no worries. So currently you can obviously have an extension on the side if you've got the land for it and an extension at the back as well. So single storey extensions can be added to the side of residential properties and the permitted development. Obviously with caveats we mentioned before, and then they have to be a maximum of half the width of the existing building. So that's something to consider as well. If you have a land that's double the size, you can't just make the whole side. You can only make half the width of your existing building as the extension and it can't face a road. So if you've got a corner plot that two of the sides face the road, you can't actually extend into that corner plot. I'm afraid. And then again, so no more than 50 % of the land can be covered at the back of the house. And then the rear extension cannot be connected. So that's the biggest thing. So if you've got a rear extension and a side extension at the moment, they're like two boxes getting plugged into your current house and that can't be connected together. So they're two side extensions separate.

Andy Graham(28:38)
Well, I have exactly that in the house that I'm sat in now and it drives me mad. And actually the bit on the side for us wasn't an extension as such. It was a garage that was converted, which I think is a good example, isn't it? We often come up, I bang on about garages and converting garages regularly. I think that they're a great space and usually are just about the right size for a bedroom. But combined with a rear extension, it leaves that gap sort of in the corner between the two buildings. And you think, why can I not just connect these two. But the proposal is, well, what is the proposal? The proposal is we can connect them.

Andrew and Mary(29:15)
Yeah, so the proposal is that it's gonna be allowed. You're gonna be able to wrap the side and rear extension around the property, connect them together and make a full L -shaped extension around the back, which will be a big game changer. I know a lot of people like you, Andy, who are frustrated by the fact that you've got these two boxes on the side and back. Gotta go in for planning permission just to connect them together.
So I think for this to be allowed as under -permitted development will be one of the biggest changes that I think will help a lot of investors.

Andy Graham (29:42)
And I think if anyone's got a plot or building that has this sort of thing on the side, a garage on the side to convert, or maybe the ability to put a small side extension, obviously we've got PDE rights that exist for rear extensions that they're looking to be improved upon. When you look at the scale of economies, if you're doing that work already, just filling in that corner gap between the two is an absolute no -brainer. And talk about getting a good bang for your buck. I mean, that is a lot of space that you can add. It can give you so much more flexibility. I think that this will be absolutely brilliant. And I don't know about you guys, but I think it looks better. I don't think it looks very good. The waiters at the minute, I get that you might not be able to see it from the front of the road, but if you own the house, you've got to look at it from their back. And it drives me mad in my, you know, in the one I'm sat in a minute. This is a bit of a dark dingy corner, I can't plant anything, it gets all grimy or the leaves get blown into it and things like that. So I think this is really positive. And I think it could, especially with some modern design ideas, that's like some of the stuff that I've seen you guys designing, it can look so cool as well. Like really, really cool. So I really hope this one comes through.

Andrew and Mary(30:49)

Yeah, definitely. I'm with you on that. It's one of the ones that to me is very odd for that to not be allowed. And so hopefully this is one of the common sense ones that gets approved and brought in. Yeah. And if we're able to, if they bring in the new rules regarding the rear extension being made bigger, imagine how much space you can have when you can connect them together. I think that'll be incredible.

Andrew and Mary(31:14)

Absolutely. So just to summarize for our listeners then, so we've got potential changes to dormers should be hopefully able to increase the volumes, potentially even increase the roof height and be able to do dormers on upper flats as well. Rear extensions, possibly increasing from the sort of the current three and four meters on terrace and semi -indetached to four and five, potentially abolishing the restriction on how much of the sort of remaining garden that you can actually cover up as well. Double stories, there's the potential that we might be able to go right up to the boundary if it's not bound by residential property. And we might be able to create wraparound extensions, I suppose connecting rear extensions and side extensions. We might be able to do all of that under PD as well, which would be absolutely class. Well, I think that this is one of the most, I mean, let's wait and see, but if this was to come off, let's wait and see if it come up. But I think if it was, if all these were to come through, I think this would be one of the best things to happen in our industry for a long, long time. Granted, there hasn't been much great stuff happening in our industry for a long, long time. But I think this would be so good. The ability to create space and add value without having to go through the laborious process, slow and expensive process of planning every single time would be just fantastic. Economically, this is just such a good thing for us. So fingers crossed. When might we find out guys? Do you know?

Andrew & Mary(32:42)

No, there's no information about when an announcement date is due. Just that the consultation period was run through till the 9th of April there's not been a timeline on it, but hopefully in the not too distant future, I've already had people asking me all about it, wanting to, they've got work to do and they own properties and they wanted to know, should I hold on, get a bigger dormer, might I get a wraparound extension? But unfortunately there's no timeline as we speak.

Andy Graham(33:07)

So I guess we'll just have to wait and see and watch this space. But I wonder whether it might be another thing that the conservatives want to sort of get through before they can't get anything through. I mean, they're obviously starting to clutch it straws now and it would be good to see this get pushed through. So let's cross our fingers and hope, but guys, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you back on the show. As always, we must do this more regularly. And I think actually that's going to be the plan. Thank you for coming and sharing all of your insights on these potential updates in the planning sector with us. I think that this is such good stuff for us as HMO Investors to know. And it's also been great to hear about all the wonderful stuff that you guys are doing as well. I'm not quite sure where you're getting all the time from, although,I know that you've got a growing team and all of your systems on operations and things like that. So it's brilliant to see, but thank you so much for coming on and sharing all this great stuff with us.

Andrew and Mary(33:59)

Thank you for having us. Thanks very much.

Andy Graham(34:08)

That's it for today's episode guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed that conversation with myself and Andrew and Mary. Hope you found it useful. How exciting. I certainly hope that they do all come through as that consultation is rounded out by the government, but let's wait and see. Of course, if you want to go and inquire about Andrew and Mary's service, head to thehmorroadmap.co.uk. Find our navigation bar at the top of the website for our services. And if you scroll down there, you'll find architecture and design, Andrew and Mary are on there, you can read a little bit more about them and their services, and you can drop an enquiry on it and they'll pick that up straight away. Of course, if you want to learn more about HMOs, get yourself into the HMO roadmap, get yourself either a starter or a premium subscription, and go and take advantage of the 400 plus resources we've got from videos to case studies to the deal stacker to downloadable templates and everything else to help you grow your HMO property business. That's it. Thank you once again. And don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week. So please join me then for another installment of the HMO podcast.